Is $f$ differentiable at $0$, where $f(x) = x$ if $x$ is rational and $f(x) = 0$ otherwise?











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This is the function:
$$f(x)=begin{cases}x& text{if $x$ is rational}\0 &text{if $x$ is irrational}end{cases}$$



My attempt:



It's easy to verify that $f$ is continuous at $x=0$ using the sequential definition of continuity. I claim that $f$ is not differentiable at $x=0$. Assume the contrary and let $f'(0)=L$. Now, we pick an $varepsilon$ such that $0<varepsilon < |L|$. For this choice of $varepsilon$ there is a $delta >0$ such that if $0<|x-0|<delta$ then we have $left| frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0} -Lright| < varepsilon $. Now, pick $x' in mathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q}$ with $0<|x'| <delta$. Then we have $left| frac{f(x')-f(0)}{x'-0} -Lright| = |L| > varepsilon$. A contradiction!



Is this proof correct?










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  • 2




    The proof looks correct to me.
    – b00n heT
    Sep 30 at 7:17












  • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_continuous_function
    – georg
    Sep 30 at 7:27










  • @b00nheT. The $<$ in the last line should have been $>$ (a typo) so I fixed it. But the flaw is assuming $Lne 0$. The proposer has only shown that if $f'(0)=L$ exists then $L=0.$ But $f'(0$) does not exist
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:05










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct, thanks for pointing it out. My bad for missing it! I've added the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:16















up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












This is the function:
$$f(x)=begin{cases}x& text{if $x$ is rational}\0 &text{if $x$ is irrational}end{cases}$$



My attempt:



It's easy to verify that $f$ is continuous at $x=0$ using the sequential definition of continuity. I claim that $f$ is not differentiable at $x=0$. Assume the contrary and let $f'(0)=L$. Now, we pick an $varepsilon$ such that $0<varepsilon < |L|$. For this choice of $varepsilon$ there is a $delta >0$ such that if $0<|x-0|<delta$ then we have $left| frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0} -Lright| < varepsilon $. Now, pick $x' in mathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q}$ with $0<|x'| <delta$. Then we have $left| frac{f(x')-f(0)}{x'-0} -Lright| = |L| > varepsilon$. A contradiction!



Is this proof correct?










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 2




    The proof looks correct to me.
    – b00n heT
    Sep 30 at 7:17












  • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_continuous_function
    – georg
    Sep 30 at 7:27










  • @b00nheT. The $<$ in the last line should have been $>$ (a typo) so I fixed it. But the flaw is assuming $Lne 0$. The proposer has only shown that if $f'(0)=L$ exists then $L=0.$ But $f'(0$) does not exist
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:05










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct, thanks for pointing it out. My bad for missing it! I've added the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:16













up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1






1





This is the function:
$$f(x)=begin{cases}x& text{if $x$ is rational}\0 &text{if $x$ is irrational}end{cases}$$



My attempt:



It's easy to verify that $f$ is continuous at $x=0$ using the sequential definition of continuity. I claim that $f$ is not differentiable at $x=0$. Assume the contrary and let $f'(0)=L$. Now, we pick an $varepsilon$ such that $0<varepsilon < |L|$. For this choice of $varepsilon$ there is a $delta >0$ such that if $0<|x-0|<delta$ then we have $left| frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0} -Lright| < varepsilon $. Now, pick $x' in mathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q}$ with $0<|x'| <delta$. Then we have $left| frac{f(x')-f(0)}{x'-0} -Lright| = |L| > varepsilon$. A contradiction!



Is this proof correct?










share|cite|improve this question















This is the function:
$$f(x)=begin{cases}x& text{if $x$ is rational}\0 &text{if $x$ is irrational}end{cases}$$



My attempt:



It's easy to verify that $f$ is continuous at $x=0$ using the sequential definition of continuity. I claim that $f$ is not differentiable at $x=0$. Assume the contrary and let $f'(0)=L$. Now, we pick an $varepsilon$ such that $0<varepsilon < |L|$. For this choice of $varepsilon$ there is a $delta >0$ such that if $0<|x-0|<delta$ then we have $left| frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0} -Lright| < varepsilon $. Now, pick $x' in mathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q}$ with $0<|x'| <delta$. Then we have $left| frac{f(x')-f(0)}{x'-0} -Lright| = |L| > varepsilon$. A contradiction!



Is this proof correct?







real-analysis derivatives






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share|cite|improve this question













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share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 17 at 6:59









DanielWainfleet

33.5k31647




33.5k31647










asked Sep 30 at 7:14









Ashish K

775513




775513








  • 2




    The proof looks correct to me.
    – b00n heT
    Sep 30 at 7:17












  • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_continuous_function
    – georg
    Sep 30 at 7:27










  • @b00nheT. The $<$ in the last line should have been $>$ (a typo) so I fixed it. But the flaw is assuming $Lne 0$. The proposer has only shown that if $f'(0)=L$ exists then $L=0.$ But $f'(0$) does not exist
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:05










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct, thanks for pointing it out. My bad for missing it! I've added the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:16














  • 2




    The proof looks correct to me.
    – b00n heT
    Sep 30 at 7:17












  • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_continuous_function
    – georg
    Sep 30 at 7:27










  • @b00nheT. The $<$ in the last line should have been $>$ (a typo) so I fixed it. But the flaw is assuming $Lne 0$. The proposer has only shown that if $f'(0)=L$ exists then $L=0.$ But $f'(0$) does not exist
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:05










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct, thanks for pointing it out. My bad for missing it! I've added the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:16








2




2




The proof looks correct to me.
– b00n heT
Sep 30 at 7:17






The proof looks correct to me.
– b00n heT
Sep 30 at 7:17














en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_continuous_function
– georg
Sep 30 at 7:27




en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_continuous_function
– georg
Sep 30 at 7:27












@b00nheT. The $<$ in the last line should have been $>$ (a typo) so I fixed it. But the flaw is assuming $Lne 0$. The proposer has only shown that if $f'(0)=L$ exists then $L=0.$ But $f'(0$) does not exist
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 17 at 7:05




@b00nheT. The $<$ in the last line should have been $>$ (a typo) so I fixed it. But the flaw is assuming $Lne 0$. The proposer has only shown that if $f'(0)=L$ exists then $L=0.$ But $f'(0$) does not exist
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 17 at 7:05












@DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct, thanks for pointing it out. My bad for missing it! I've added the correction in my answer
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 8:16




@DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct, thanks for pointing it out. My bad for missing it! I've added the correction in my answer
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 8:16










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
4
down vote



accepted










EDIT: As @DanielWainfleet pointed out in the comments, your proof does not apply in the case $L=0$. The proof basically goes exactly like the one you have written: first you choose an $0<varepsilon<1$ small enough, then you take $delta$ as you please and look at the difference quotient for any $|x|<delta$. If $f$ was differentiable, then it should hold that
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|<varepsilon$$
but by density of the irrationals, you can find an irrational $x$ such that $|x|<delta$ and for that one
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|=left|frac{x-0}{x-0}right|=1>varepsilon$$
contradicting the assumption.





Another working approach is showing that approaching $0$ via irrationals and via rationals leads to different difference quotients:



Indeed :




  • choose a sequence of irrational numbers ($a_n=sqrt{2}/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=0$ for all $n$

  • choose a sequence of rational numbers ($a_n=1/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=1$ for all $n$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • The flaw in the proposer's proof is assuming that if $L$ exists then $Lne 0.$ If $L=0$ then we cannot take any $epsilon$ such that $0<epsilon <|L|.$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:07










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct. My bad for missing it! I'll add the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:08










  • Much of performance-magic depends on how easily we make or overlook unwarranted assumptions.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 11:34











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1 Answer
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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
4
down vote



accepted










EDIT: As @DanielWainfleet pointed out in the comments, your proof does not apply in the case $L=0$. The proof basically goes exactly like the one you have written: first you choose an $0<varepsilon<1$ small enough, then you take $delta$ as you please and look at the difference quotient for any $|x|<delta$. If $f$ was differentiable, then it should hold that
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|<varepsilon$$
but by density of the irrationals, you can find an irrational $x$ such that $|x|<delta$ and for that one
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|=left|frac{x-0}{x-0}right|=1>varepsilon$$
contradicting the assumption.





Another working approach is showing that approaching $0$ via irrationals and via rationals leads to different difference quotients:



Indeed :




  • choose a sequence of irrational numbers ($a_n=sqrt{2}/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=0$ for all $n$

  • choose a sequence of rational numbers ($a_n=1/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=1$ for all $n$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • The flaw in the proposer's proof is assuming that if $L$ exists then $Lne 0.$ If $L=0$ then we cannot take any $epsilon$ such that $0<epsilon <|L|.$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:07










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct. My bad for missing it! I'll add the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:08










  • Much of performance-magic depends on how easily we make or overlook unwarranted assumptions.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 11:34















up vote
4
down vote



accepted










EDIT: As @DanielWainfleet pointed out in the comments, your proof does not apply in the case $L=0$. The proof basically goes exactly like the one you have written: first you choose an $0<varepsilon<1$ small enough, then you take $delta$ as you please and look at the difference quotient for any $|x|<delta$. If $f$ was differentiable, then it should hold that
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|<varepsilon$$
but by density of the irrationals, you can find an irrational $x$ such that $|x|<delta$ and for that one
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|=left|frac{x-0}{x-0}right|=1>varepsilon$$
contradicting the assumption.





Another working approach is showing that approaching $0$ via irrationals and via rationals leads to different difference quotients:



Indeed :




  • choose a sequence of irrational numbers ($a_n=sqrt{2}/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=0$ for all $n$

  • choose a sequence of rational numbers ($a_n=1/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=1$ for all $n$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • The flaw in the proposer's proof is assuming that if $L$ exists then $Lne 0.$ If $L=0$ then we cannot take any $epsilon$ such that $0<epsilon <|L|.$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:07










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct. My bad for missing it! I'll add the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:08










  • Much of performance-magic depends on how easily we make or overlook unwarranted assumptions.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 11:34













up vote
4
down vote



accepted







up vote
4
down vote



accepted






EDIT: As @DanielWainfleet pointed out in the comments, your proof does not apply in the case $L=0$. The proof basically goes exactly like the one you have written: first you choose an $0<varepsilon<1$ small enough, then you take $delta$ as you please and look at the difference quotient for any $|x|<delta$. If $f$ was differentiable, then it should hold that
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|<varepsilon$$
but by density of the irrationals, you can find an irrational $x$ such that $|x|<delta$ and for that one
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|=left|frac{x-0}{x-0}right|=1>varepsilon$$
contradicting the assumption.





Another working approach is showing that approaching $0$ via irrationals and via rationals leads to different difference quotients:



Indeed :




  • choose a sequence of irrational numbers ($a_n=sqrt{2}/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=0$ for all $n$

  • choose a sequence of rational numbers ($a_n=1/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=1$ for all $n$






share|cite|improve this answer














EDIT: As @DanielWainfleet pointed out in the comments, your proof does not apply in the case $L=0$. The proof basically goes exactly like the one you have written: first you choose an $0<varepsilon<1$ small enough, then you take $delta$ as you please and look at the difference quotient for any $|x|<delta$. If $f$ was differentiable, then it should hold that
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|<varepsilon$$
but by density of the irrationals, you can find an irrational $x$ such that $|x|<delta$ and for that one
$$left|frac{f(x)-f(0)}{x-0}right|=left|frac{x-0}{x-0}right|=1>varepsilon$$
contradicting the assumption.





Another working approach is showing that approaching $0$ via irrationals and via rationals leads to different difference quotients:



Indeed :




  • choose a sequence of irrational numbers ($a_n=sqrt{2}/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=0$ for all $n$

  • choose a sequence of rational numbers ($a_n=1/n$) tending to zero. Then $frac{f(a_n)-0}{a_n-0}=1$ for all $n$







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Nov 17 at 8:15

























answered Sep 30 at 7:20









b00n heT

10.2k12134




10.2k12134












  • The flaw in the proposer's proof is assuming that if $L$ exists then $Lne 0.$ If $L=0$ then we cannot take any $epsilon$ such that $0<epsilon <|L|.$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:07










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct. My bad for missing it! I'll add the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:08










  • Much of performance-magic depends on how easily we make or overlook unwarranted assumptions.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 11:34


















  • The flaw in the proposer's proof is assuming that if $L$ exists then $Lne 0.$ If $L=0$ then we cannot take any $epsilon$ such that $0<epsilon <|L|.$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 7:07










  • @DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct. My bad for missing it! I'll add the correction in my answer
    – b00n heT
    Nov 17 at 8:08










  • Much of performance-magic depends on how easily we make or overlook unwarranted assumptions.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Nov 17 at 11:34
















The flaw in the proposer's proof is assuming that if $L$ exists then $Lne 0.$ If $L=0$ then we cannot take any $epsilon$ such that $0<epsilon <|L|.$
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 17 at 7:07




The flaw in the proposer's proof is assuming that if $L$ exists then $Lne 0.$ If $L=0$ then we cannot take any $epsilon$ such that $0<epsilon <|L|.$
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 17 at 7:07












@DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct. My bad for missing it! I'll add the correction in my answer
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 8:08




@DanielWainfleet You are indeed correct. My bad for missing it! I'll add the correction in my answer
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 8:08












Much of performance-magic depends on how easily we make or overlook unwarranted assumptions.
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 17 at 11:34




Much of performance-magic depends on how easily we make or overlook unwarranted assumptions.
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 17 at 11:34


















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