Confusion about implicit differentiation $frac{dy}{dx}$











up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Today I learnt about implicit differentiation using this:



$frac{d}{dx}(f)$ = $frac{df}{dy} times frac{dy}{dx}$



I don't understand when doing implicit differentiation how the d/dy part works for y terms:



$frac{d(y^2)}{dx} = frac{d(y^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}=2yfrac{dy}{dx}$



Why is the derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$, $2y$? Do you assume it's a function of something else?
And similarly if you apply this same formula to an $x$ term (even though its not needed) you get:



$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$



How does that simplify to the $2x$ I know it is?



Thanks










share|cite|improve this question
























  • What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    Nov 26 at 18:14












  • @A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
    – DevinJC
    Nov 26 at 18:16












  • If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    Nov 26 at 18:18















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Today I learnt about implicit differentiation using this:



$frac{d}{dx}(f)$ = $frac{df}{dy} times frac{dy}{dx}$



I don't understand when doing implicit differentiation how the d/dy part works for y terms:



$frac{d(y^2)}{dx} = frac{d(y^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}=2yfrac{dy}{dx}$



Why is the derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$, $2y$? Do you assume it's a function of something else?
And similarly if you apply this same formula to an $x$ term (even though its not needed) you get:



$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$



How does that simplify to the $2x$ I know it is?



Thanks










share|cite|improve this question
























  • What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    Nov 26 at 18:14












  • @A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
    – DevinJC
    Nov 26 at 18:16












  • If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    Nov 26 at 18:18













up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











Today I learnt about implicit differentiation using this:



$frac{d}{dx}(f)$ = $frac{df}{dy} times frac{dy}{dx}$



I don't understand when doing implicit differentiation how the d/dy part works for y terms:



$frac{d(y^2)}{dx} = frac{d(y^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}=2yfrac{dy}{dx}$



Why is the derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$, $2y$? Do you assume it's a function of something else?
And similarly if you apply this same formula to an $x$ term (even though its not needed) you get:



$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$



How does that simplify to the $2x$ I know it is?



Thanks










share|cite|improve this question















Today I learnt about implicit differentiation using this:



$frac{d}{dx}(f)$ = $frac{df}{dy} times frac{dy}{dx}$



I don't understand when doing implicit differentiation how the d/dy part works for y terms:



$frac{d(y^2)}{dx} = frac{d(y^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}=2yfrac{dy}{dx}$



Why is the derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$, $2y$? Do you assume it's a function of something else?
And similarly if you apply this same formula to an $x$ term (even though its not needed) you get:



$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$



How does that simplify to the $2x$ I know it is?



Thanks







differential-equations implicit-differentiation






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 26 at 18:56









WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo

1,059321




1,059321










asked Nov 26 at 18:10









DevinJC

937




937












  • What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    Nov 26 at 18:14












  • @A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
    – DevinJC
    Nov 26 at 18:16












  • If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    Nov 26 at 18:18


















  • What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    Nov 26 at 18:14












  • @A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
    – DevinJC
    Nov 26 at 18:16












  • If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    Nov 26 at 18:18
















What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
– A.Γ.
Nov 26 at 18:14






What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
– A.Γ.
Nov 26 at 18:14














@A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
– DevinJC
Nov 26 at 18:16






@A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
– DevinJC
Nov 26 at 18:16














If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
– A.Γ.
Nov 26 at 18:18




If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
– A.Γ.
Nov 26 at 18:18










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
2
down vote



accepted










Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



$$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



For your second case where you state:
$$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
$$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
$$t+ t^2 + 3z^2 + z^3 = 6$$
Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(t,z)=(1,1)$, we will derive both sides with respect to $t$, we do not know if $z$ is is a function of $t$ so we need to use the chain rule.



We would get:
$$1+ 2t + 6z frac{dz}{dt} + 3 z^2 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
$$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dz}{dt} + 3 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
Or after rearranging:
$$9 frac{dz}{dt} = -3 rightarrow frac{dz}{dt}= -frac{1}{3}$$
We get the tangent line $z= -frac{1}{3}(t-1) +1$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thanks a lot this really helped.
    – DevinJC
    Nov 26 at 18:35










  • any time ;) we're all here to help
    – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
    Nov 26 at 18:36










  • Hello, I just saw your edit. why dont the $frac{dy}{dx}$ terms cancel out for the y terms as the $ frac{dx}{dy}$ terms for the x terms. Or do we just not do that otherwise we can't rearrange for what we want ($frac{dy/dx}$)
    – DevinJC
    Nov 27 at 10:10












  • Maybe I should use different letters to make clear that $y$ is not always equal to $x^2$
    – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
    Nov 27 at 12:53






  • 1




    It automatically IS, because the function is a relation between $x$ and $y$, but we only derive with respect to $x$. If you would use the chain rule like this for $X=x$: $$ frac{d}{dx} (X(x)^2)= 2X cdot frac{dx}{dx}=2X=2x$$ I think you get what you mean by using the chain rule for a variable you don't need to use it for. Here I mean that $X$ is a function of $x$ (clearly).
    – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
    Nov 27 at 14:30




















up vote
4
down vote













You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
$$
f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
$$






share|cite|improve this answer




























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
    $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



    In the last expression you write
    $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
    but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
    $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer





















      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      });
      });
      }, "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function() {
      var channelOptions = {
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "69"
      };
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
      createEditor();
      });
      }
      else {
      createEditor();
      }
      });

      function createEditor() {
      StackExchange.prepareEditor({
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      convertImagesToLinks: true,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: 10,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader: {
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      },
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      });


      }
      });














      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function () {
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3014696%2fconfusion-about-implicit-differentiation-fracdydx%23new-answer', 'question_page');
      }
      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      2
      down vote



      accepted










      Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



      Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



      $$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



      Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



      For your second case where you state:
      $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
      We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
      $$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



      In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
      $$t+ t^2 + 3z^2 + z^3 = 6$$
      Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(t,z)=(1,1)$, we will derive both sides with respect to $t$, we do not know if $z$ is is a function of $t$ so we need to use the chain rule.



      We would get:
      $$1+ 2t + 6z frac{dz}{dt} + 3 z^2 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
      Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
      $$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dz}{dt} + 3 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
      Or after rearranging:
      $$9 frac{dz}{dt} = -3 rightarrow frac{dz}{dt}= -frac{1}{3}$$
      We get the tangent line $z= -frac{1}{3}(t-1) +1$






      share|cite|improve this answer























      • Thanks a lot this really helped.
        – DevinJC
        Nov 26 at 18:35










      • any time ;) we're all here to help
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 26 at 18:36










      • Hello, I just saw your edit. why dont the $frac{dy}{dx}$ terms cancel out for the y terms as the $ frac{dx}{dy}$ terms for the x terms. Or do we just not do that otherwise we can't rearrange for what we want ($frac{dy/dx}$)
        – DevinJC
        Nov 27 at 10:10












      • Maybe I should use different letters to make clear that $y$ is not always equal to $x^2$
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 27 at 12:53






      • 1




        It automatically IS, because the function is a relation between $x$ and $y$, but we only derive with respect to $x$. If you would use the chain rule like this for $X=x$: $$ frac{d}{dx} (X(x)^2)= 2X cdot frac{dx}{dx}=2X=2x$$ I think you get what you mean by using the chain rule for a variable you don't need to use it for. Here I mean that $X$ is a function of $x$ (clearly).
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 27 at 14:30

















      up vote
      2
      down vote



      accepted










      Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



      Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



      $$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



      Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



      For your second case where you state:
      $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
      We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
      $$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



      In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
      $$t+ t^2 + 3z^2 + z^3 = 6$$
      Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(t,z)=(1,1)$, we will derive both sides with respect to $t$, we do not know if $z$ is is a function of $t$ so we need to use the chain rule.



      We would get:
      $$1+ 2t + 6z frac{dz}{dt} + 3 z^2 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
      Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
      $$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dz}{dt} + 3 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
      Or after rearranging:
      $$9 frac{dz}{dt} = -3 rightarrow frac{dz}{dt}= -frac{1}{3}$$
      We get the tangent line $z= -frac{1}{3}(t-1) +1$






      share|cite|improve this answer























      • Thanks a lot this really helped.
        – DevinJC
        Nov 26 at 18:35










      • any time ;) we're all here to help
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 26 at 18:36










      • Hello, I just saw your edit. why dont the $frac{dy}{dx}$ terms cancel out for the y terms as the $ frac{dx}{dy}$ terms for the x terms. Or do we just not do that otherwise we can't rearrange for what we want ($frac{dy/dx}$)
        – DevinJC
        Nov 27 at 10:10












      • Maybe I should use different letters to make clear that $y$ is not always equal to $x^2$
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 27 at 12:53






      • 1




        It automatically IS, because the function is a relation between $x$ and $y$, but we only derive with respect to $x$. If you would use the chain rule like this for $X=x$: $$ frac{d}{dx} (X(x)^2)= 2X cdot frac{dx}{dx}=2X=2x$$ I think you get what you mean by using the chain rule for a variable you don't need to use it for. Here I mean that $X$ is a function of $x$ (clearly).
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 27 at 14:30















      up vote
      2
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      2
      down vote



      accepted






      Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



      Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



      $$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



      Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



      For your second case where you state:
      $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
      We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
      $$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



      In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
      $$t+ t^2 + 3z^2 + z^3 = 6$$
      Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(t,z)=(1,1)$, we will derive both sides with respect to $t$, we do not know if $z$ is is a function of $t$ so we need to use the chain rule.



      We would get:
      $$1+ 2t + 6z frac{dz}{dt} + 3 z^2 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
      Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
      $$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dz}{dt} + 3 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
      Or after rearranging:
      $$9 frac{dz}{dt} = -3 rightarrow frac{dz}{dt}= -frac{1}{3}$$
      We get the tangent line $z= -frac{1}{3}(t-1) +1$






      share|cite|improve this answer














      Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



      Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



      $$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



      Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



      For your second case where you state:
      $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
      We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
      $$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



      In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
      $$t+ t^2 + 3z^2 + z^3 = 6$$
      Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(t,z)=(1,1)$, we will derive both sides with respect to $t$, we do not know if $z$ is is a function of $t$ so we need to use the chain rule.



      We would get:
      $$1+ 2t + 6z frac{dz}{dt} + 3 z^2 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
      Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
      $$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dz}{dt} + 3 frac{dz}{dt} = 0$$
      Or after rearranging:
      $$9 frac{dz}{dt} = -3 rightarrow frac{dz}{dt}= -frac{1}{3}$$
      We get the tangent line $z= -frac{1}{3}(t-1) +1$







      share|cite|improve this answer














      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited Nov 27 at 12:56


























      community wiki





      5 revs
      WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo













      • Thanks a lot this really helped.
        – DevinJC
        Nov 26 at 18:35










      • any time ;) we're all here to help
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 26 at 18:36










      • Hello, I just saw your edit. why dont the $frac{dy}{dx}$ terms cancel out for the y terms as the $ frac{dx}{dy}$ terms for the x terms. Or do we just not do that otherwise we can't rearrange for what we want ($frac{dy/dx}$)
        – DevinJC
        Nov 27 at 10:10












      • Maybe I should use different letters to make clear that $y$ is not always equal to $x^2$
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 27 at 12:53






      • 1




        It automatically IS, because the function is a relation between $x$ and $y$, but we only derive with respect to $x$. If you would use the chain rule like this for $X=x$: $$ frac{d}{dx} (X(x)^2)= 2X cdot frac{dx}{dx}=2X=2x$$ I think you get what you mean by using the chain rule for a variable you don't need to use it for. Here I mean that $X$ is a function of $x$ (clearly).
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 27 at 14:30




















      • Thanks a lot this really helped.
        – DevinJC
        Nov 26 at 18:35










      • any time ;) we're all here to help
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 26 at 18:36










      • Hello, I just saw your edit. why dont the $frac{dy}{dx}$ terms cancel out for the y terms as the $ frac{dx}{dy}$ terms for the x terms. Or do we just not do that otherwise we can't rearrange for what we want ($frac{dy/dx}$)
        – DevinJC
        Nov 27 at 10:10












      • Maybe I should use different letters to make clear that $y$ is not always equal to $x^2$
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 27 at 12:53






      • 1




        It automatically IS, because the function is a relation between $x$ and $y$, but we only derive with respect to $x$. If you would use the chain rule like this for $X=x$: $$ frac{d}{dx} (X(x)^2)= 2X cdot frac{dx}{dx}=2X=2x$$ I think you get what you mean by using the chain rule for a variable you don't need to use it for. Here I mean that $X$ is a function of $x$ (clearly).
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        Nov 27 at 14:30


















      Thanks a lot this really helped.
      – DevinJC
      Nov 26 at 18:35




      Thanks a lot this really helped.
      – DevinJC
      Nov 26 at 18:35












      any time ;) we're all here to help
      – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
      Nov 26 at 18:36




      any time ;) we're all here to help
      – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
      Nov 26 at 18:36












      Hello, I just saw your edit. why dont the $frac{dy}{dx}$ terms cancel out for the y terms as the $ frac{dx}{dy}$ terms for the x terms. Or do we just not do that otherwise we can't rearrange for what we want ($frac{dy/dx}$)
      – DevinJC
      Nov 27 at 10:10






      Hello, I just saw your edit. why dont the $frac{dy}{dx}$ terms cancel out for the y terms as the $ frac{dx}{dy}$ terms for the x terms. Or do we just not do that otherwise we can't rearrange for what we want ($frac{dy/dx}$)
      – DevinJC
      Nov 27 at 10:10














      Maybe I should use different letters to make clear that $y$ is not always equal to $x^2$
      – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
      Nov 27 at 12:53




      Maybe I should use different letters to make clear that $y$ is not always equal to $x^2$
      – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
      Nov 27 at 12:53




      1




      1




      It automatically IS, because the function is a relation between $x$ and $y$, but we only derive with respect to $x$. If you would use the chain rule like this for $X=x$: $$ frac{d}{dx} (X(x)^2)= 2X cdot frac{dx}{dx}=2X=2x$$ I think you get what you mean by using the chain rule for a variable you don't need to use it for. Here I mean that $X$ is a function of $x$ (clearly).
      – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
      Nov 27 at 14:30






      It automatically IS, because the function is a relation between $x$ and $y$, but we only derive with respect to $x$. If you would use the chain rule like this for $X=x$: $$ frac{d}{dx} (X(x)^2)= 2X cdot frac{dx}{dx}=2X=2x$$ I think you get what you mean by using the chain rule for a variable you don't need to use it for. Here I mean that $X$ is a function of $x$ (clearly).
      – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
      Nov 27 at 14:30












      up vote
      4
      down vote













      You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
      $$
      f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
      f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
      frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
      $$






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        4
        down vote













        You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
        $$
        f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
        f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
        frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
        $$






        share|cite|improve this answer























          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
          $$
          f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
          f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
          frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
          $$






          share|cite|improve this answer












          You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
          $$
          f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
          f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
          frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
          $$







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Nov 26 at 18:21









          Vasily Mitch

          1,05817




          1,05817






















              up vote
              2
              down vote













              The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
              $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



              In the last expression you write
              $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
              but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
              $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$






              share|cite|improve this answer

























                up vote
                2
                down vote













                The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
                $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



                In the last expression you write
                $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
                but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
                $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$






                share|cite|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote









                  The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
                  $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



                  In the last expression you write
                  $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
                  but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
                  $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
                  $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



                  In the last expression you write
                  $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
                  but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
                  $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Nov 26 at 18:28









                  Gibbs

                  4,6923726




                  4,6923726






























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded




















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





                      Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


                      Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function () {
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3014696%2fconfusion-about-implicit-differentiation-fracdydx%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                      }
                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      QoS: MAC-Priority for clients behind a repeater

                      Ивакино (Тотемский район)

                      Can't locate Autom4te/ChannelDefs.pm in @INC (when it definitely is there)