Trying to prove an integral inequality











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Let $f_s,f_l:(0,infty) mapsto {mathbb R}$ be monotonic increasing functions with $f_s(x) leq f_l(x)$ and let $x_s,x_l$ be the smallest positive roots of the equation $1-f_{s,l}(x)=0$ respectively (assuming they exist, are real and no double roots). Then I believe the following is true
$$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} geq int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$$
and if it is true I would like to proof it.
I just don‘t know where to start.



Heuristically I think it is because the increase in integration interval $x_s geq x_l$ outweights the decrease of the integrand values $$frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} leq frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}} , .$$



Observe for small deviations $f_l = f_s + delta f$ we have to first order for the RHS
$$
int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} left( 1 + frac{delta f(x)}{2(1-f_s(x))} right)
$$

and so this requires
$$
int_{x_l}^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} geq int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} left( frac{delta f(x)}{2(1-f_s(x))} right) , .
$$

Any suggestions?



edit: You are right! I was a bit optimistic and also found a counterexample: Choosing $f_l(x)$ to become very close to $1$ very quickly and then only increasing slowly for a large interval makes the $f_l$ integral very large. On the other hand one can choose $f_s(x)$ negative and large enough, so that the integral for $f_s$ is very small. $f_s$ then increases just before $x_l$ to unity at $x_s=x_l$. This contribution should be small in comparison when the interval is large enough.










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  • How is the rhs divergent for $f_l(x)=1-x^2$?
    – Diger
    Nov 18 at 13:47










  • Oops, you're right. Deleting. Sorry.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 13:49












  • Divergent integrals can not occur if $f$ is continuous and as mentioned no double roots occur.
    – Diger
    Nov 18 at 13:51










  • Ah, I think I meant $f_l(x)approx1-(1-x)^2$ for $xle1$. Then $int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}approxint_0^1{dxover1-x}=infty$.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 13:59










  • By "$approx$" I mean replace the $2$ in $1-(1-x)^2$ with something slightly less than $2$. This eliminates the double root but keeps the integral as large as you want.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 14:02















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0
down vote

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Let $f_s,f_l:(0,infty) mapsto {mathbb R}$ be monotonic increasing functions with $f_s(x) leq f_l(x)$ and let $x_s,x_l$ be the smallest positive roots of the equation $1-f_{s,l}(x)=0$ respectively (assuming they exist, are real and no double roots). Then I believe the following is true
$$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} geq int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$$
and if it is true I would like to proof it.
I just don‘t know where to start.



Heuristically I think it is because the increase in integration interval $x_s geq x_l$ outweights the decrease of the integrand values $$frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} leq frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}} , .$$



Observe for small deviations $f_l = f_s + delta f$ we have to first order for the RHS
$$
int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} left( 1 + frac{delta f(x)}{2(1-f_s(x))} right)
$$

and so this requires
$$
int_{x_l}^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} geq int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} left( frac{delta f(x)}{2(1-f_s(x))} right) , .
$$

Any suggestions?



edit: You are right! I was a bit optimistic and also found a counterexample: Choosing $f_l(x)$ to become very close to $1$ very quickly and then only increasing slowly for a large interval makes the $f_l$ integral very large. On the other hand one can choose $f_s(x)$ negative and large enough, so that the integral for $f_s$ is very small. $f_s$ then increases just before $x_l$ to unity at $x_s=x_l$. This contribution should be small in comparison when the interval is large enough.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • How is the rhs divergent for $f_l(x)=1-x^2$?
    – Diger
    Nov 18 at 13:47










  • Oops, you're right. Deleting. Sorry.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 13:49












  • Divergent integrals can not occur if $f$ is continuous and as mentioned no double roots occur.
    – Diger
    Nov 18 at 13:51










  • Ah, I think I meant $f_l(x)approx1-(1-x)^2$ for $xle1$. Then $int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}approxint_0^1{dxover1-x}=infty$.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 13:59










  • By "$approx$" I mean replace the $2$ in $1-(1-x)^2$ with something slightly less than $2$. This eliminates the double root but keeps the integral as large as you want.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 14:02













up vote
0
down vote

favorite









up vote
0
down vote

favorite











Let $f_s,f_l:(0,infty) mapsto {mathbb R}$ be monotonic increasing functions with $f_s(x) leq f_l(x)$ and let $x_s,x_l$ be the smallest positive roots of the equation $1-f_{s,l}(x)=0$ respectively (assuming they exist, are real and no double roots). Then I believe the following is true
$$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} geq int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$$
and if it is true I would like to proof it.
I just don‘t know where to start.



Heuristically I think it is because the increase in integration interval $x_s geq x_l$ outweights the decrease of the integrand values $$frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} leq frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}} , .$$



Observe for small deviations $f_l = f_s + delta f$ we have to first order for the RHS
$$
int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} left( 1 + frac{delta f(x)}{2(1-f_s(x))} right)
$$

and so this requires
$$
int_{x_l}^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} geq int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} left( frac{delta f(x)}{2(1-f_s(x))} right) , .
$$

Any suggestions?



edit: You are right! I was a bit optimistic and also found a counterexample: Choosing $f_l(x)$ to become very close to $1$ very quickly and then only increasing slowly for a large interval makes the $f_l$ integral very large. On the other hand one can choose $f_s(x)$ negative and large enough, so that the integral for $f_s$ is very small. $f_s$ then increases just before $x_l$ to unity at $x_s=x_l$. This contribution should be small in comparison when the interval is large enough.










share|cite|improve this question















Let $f_s,f_l:(0,infty) mapsto {mathbb R}$ be monotonic increasing functions with $f_s(x) leq f_l(x)$ and let $x_s,x_l$ be the smallest positive roots of the equation $1-f_{s,l}(x)=0$ respectively (assuming they exist, are real and no double roots). Then I believe the following is true
$$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} geq int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$$
and if it is true I would like to proof it.
I just don‘t know where to start.



Heuristically I think it is because the increase in integration interval $x_s geq x_l$ outweights the decrease of the integrand values $$frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} leq frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}} , .$$



Observe for small deviations $f_l = f_s + delta f$ we have to first order for the RHS
$$
int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} left( 1 + frac{delta f(x)}{2(1-f_s(x))} right)
$$

and so this requires
$$
int_{x_l}^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} geq int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} left( frac{delta f(x)}{2(1-f_s(x))} right) , .
$$

Any suggestions?



edit: You are right! I was a bit optimistic and also found a counterexample: Choosing $f_l(x)$ to become very close to $1$ very quickly and then only increasing slowly for a large interval makes the $f_l$ integral very large. On the other hand one can choose $f_s(x)$ negative and large enough, so that the integral for $f_s$ is very small. $f_s$ then increases just before $x_l$ to unity at $x_s=x_l$. This contribution should be small in comparison when the interval is large enough.







real-analysis functions definite-integrals






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edited Nov 20 at 1:36









Ethan Bolker

39.8k543103




39.8k543103










asked Nov 18 at 13:30









Diger

1,531413




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  • How is the rhs divergent for $f_l(x)=1-x^2$?
    – Diger
    Nov 18 at 13:47










  • Oops, you're right. Deleting. Sorry.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 13:49












  • Divergent integrals can not occur if $f$ is continuous and as mentioned no double roots occur.
    – Diger
    Nov 18 at 13:51










  • Ah, I think I meant $f_l(x)approx1-(1-x)^2$ for $xle1$. Then $int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}approxint_0^1{dxover1-x}=infty$.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 13:59










  • By "$approx$" I mean replace the $2$ in $1-(1-x)^2$ with something slightly less than $2$. This eliminates the double root but keeps the integral as large as you want.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 14:02


















  • How is the rhs divergent for $f_l(x)=1-x^2$?
    – Diger
    Nov 18 at 13:47










  • Oops, you're right. Deleting. Sorry.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 13:49












  • Divergent integrals can not occur if $f$ is continuous and as mentioned no double roots occur.
    – Diger
    Nov 18 at 13:51










  • Ah, I think I meant $f_l(x)approx1-(1-x)^2$ for $xle1$. Then $int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}approxint_0^1{dxover1-x}=infty$.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 13:59










  • By "$approx$" I mean replace the $2$ in $1-(1-x)^2$ with something slightly less than $2$. This eliminates the double root but keeps the integral as large as you want.
    – Barry Cipra
    Nov 18 at 14:02
















How is the rhs divergent for $f_l(x)=1-x^2$?
– Diger
Nov 18 at 13:47




How is the rhs divergent for $f_l(x)=1-x^2$?
– Diger
Nov 18 at 13:47












Oops, you're right. Deleting. Sorry.
– Barry Cipra
Nov 18 at 13:49






Oops, you're right. Deleting. Sorry.
– Barry Cipra
Nov 18 at 13:49














Divergent integrals can not occur if $f$ is continuous and as mentioned no double roots occur.
– Diger
Nov 18 at 13:51




Divergent integrals can not occur if $f$ is continuous and as mentioned no double roots occur.
– Diger
Nov 18 at 13:51












Ah, I think I meant $f_l(x)approx1-(1-x)^2$ for $xle1$. Then $int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}approxint_0^1{dxover1-x}=infty$.
– Barry Cipra
Nov 18 at 13:59




Ah, I think I meant $f_l(x)approx1-(1-x)^2$ for $xle1$. Then $int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}approxint_0^1{dxover1-x}=infty$.
– Barry Cipra
Nov 18 at 13:59












By "$approx$" I mean replace the $2$ in $1-(1-x)^2$ with something slightly less than $2$. This eliminates the double root but keeps the integral as large as you want.
– Barry Cipra
Nov 18 at 14:02




By "$approx$" I mean replace the $2$ in $1-(1-x)^2$ with something slightly less than $2$. This eliminates the double root but keeps the integral as large as you want.
– Barry Cipra
Nov 18 at 14:02










2 Answers
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Here is a counterexample with polynomials:



Let $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ and $f_s(x)=x^2$. We need to check that $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$ and that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$. Once we do that, it's clear that $x_l=x_s=1$, so that $int_0^{x_s}{dxoversqrt{1-f_s(x)}}ltint_0^{x_l}{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$.



To show that $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ is increasing, we take the first two derivatives:



$$f_l'(x)={1over2}(1+2x-3x^2+4x^3)\
f_l''(x)={1over2}(2-6x+12x^2)=1-3x+6x^2$$



Since $3^2-4cdot1cdot6=-15lt0$, the second derivative is never $0$, hence, since $f_l''(0)=1$, it's always positive. This implies the first derivative is always increasing, so, since $f'(0)={1over2}$, the first derivative is positive for $xge0$. This in turn implies the function $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$.



To show that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$, we see that



$$f_l(x)-f_s(x)={1over2}(x-x^2-x^3+x^4)={1over2}x(1-x)^2(1+x)ge0$$



Just for fun, the integrals are



$$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-{1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)}}approx1.62868$$



(according to Wolfram Alpha) and



$$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-x^2}}={piover2}approx1.5708$$



Finally, if you want an example with $x_sgt x_l$, you can take $f_s(x)=(28x/29)^2$, in which case



$$int_0^{29/28}{dxoversqrt{1-left(28xover29right)^2}}={29piover56}approx1.6269$$






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    down vote













    Define $f_s(x) = x-1,$ $f_l(x)=(x-1)/2$ for $xin [0,1],$ $f_l(x)=2(x-1)$ for $x>1.$ We then have $x_s=x_l =1.$ However



    $$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} < int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}.$$






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      2 Answers
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      2 Answers
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      down vote













      Here is a counterexample with polynomials:



      Let $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ and $f_s(x)=x^2$. We need to check that $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$ and that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$. Once we do that, it's clear that $x_l=x_s=1$, so that $int_0^{x_s}{dxoversqrt{1-f_s(x)}}ltint_0^{x_l}{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$.



      To show that $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ is increasing, we take the first two derivatives:



      $$f_l'(x)={1over2}(1+2x-3x^2+4x^3)\
      f_l''(x)={1over2}(2-6x+12x^2)=1-3x+6x^2$$



      Since $3^2-4cdot1cdot6=-15lt0$, the second derivative is never $0$, hence, since $f_l''(0)=1$, it's always positive. This implies the first derivative is always increasing, so, since $f'(0)={1over2}$, the first derivative is positive for $xge0$. This in turn implies the function $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$.



      To show that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$, we see that



      $$f_l(x)-f_s(x)={1over2}(x-x^2-x^3+x^4)={1over2}x(1-x)^2(1+x)ge0$$



      Just for fun, the integrals are



      $$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-{1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)}}approx1.62868$$



      (according to Wolfram Alpha) and



      $$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-x^2}}={piover2}approx1.5708$$



      Finally, if you want an example with $x_sgt x_l$, you can take $f_s(x)=(28x/29)^2$, in which case



      $$int_0^{29/28}{dxoversqrt{1-left(28xover29right)^2}}={29piover56}approx1.6269$$






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        2
        down vote













        Here is a counterexample with polynomials:



        Let $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ and $f_s(x)=x^2$. We need to check that $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$ and that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$. Once we do that, it's clear that $x_l=x_s=1$, so that $int_0^{x_s}{dxoversqrt{1-f_s(x)}}ltint_0^{x_l}{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$.



        To show that $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ is increasing, we take the first two derivatives:



        $$f_l'(x)={1over2}(1+2x-3x^2+4x^3)\
        f_l''(x)={1over2}(2-6x+12x^2)=1-3x+6x^2$$



        Since $3^2-4cdot1cdot6=-15lt0$, the second derivative is never $0$, hence, since $f_l''(0)=1$, it's always positive. This implies the first derivative is always increasing, so, since $f'(0)={1over2}$, the first derivative is positive for $xge0$. This in turn implies the function $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$.



        To show that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$, we see that



        $$f_l(x)-f_s(x)={1over2}(x-x^2-x^3+x^4)={1over2}x(1-x)^2(1+x)ge0$$



        Just for fun, the integrals are



        $$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-{1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)}}approx1.62868$$



        (according to Wolfram Alpha) and



        $$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-x^2}}={piover2}approx1.5708$$



        Finally, if you want an example with $x_sgt x_l$, you can take $f_s(x)=(28x/29)^2$, in which case



        $$int_0^{29/28}{dxoversqrt{1-left(28xover29right)^2}}={29piover56}approx1.6269$$






        share|cite|improve this answer























          up vote
          2
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          up vote
          2
          down vote









          Here is a counterexample with polynomials:



          Let $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ and $f_s(x)=x^2$. We need to check that $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$ and that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$. Once we do that, it's clear that $x_l=x_s=1$, so that $int_0^{x_s}{dxoversqrt{1-f_s(x)}}ltint_0^{x_l}{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$.



          To show that $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ is increasing, we take the first two derivatives:



          $$f_l'(x)={1over2}(1+2x-3x^2+4x^3)\
          f_l''(x)={1over2}(2-6x+12x^2)=1-3x+6x^2$$



          Since $3^2-4cdot1cdot6=-15lt0$, the second derivative is never $0$, hence, since $f_l''(0)=1$, it's always positive. This implies the first derivative is always increasing, so, since $f'(0)={1over2}$, the first derivative is positive for $xge0$. This in turn implies the function $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$.



          To show that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$, we see that



          $$f_l(x)-f_s(x)={1over2}(x-x^2-x^3+x^4)={1over2}x(1-x)^2(1+x)ge0$$



          Just for fun, the integrals are



          $$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-{1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)}}approx1.62868$$



          (according to Wolfram Alpha) and



          $$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-x^2}}={piover2}approx1.5708$$



          Finally, if you want an example with $x_sgt x_l$, you can take $f_s(x)=(28x/29)^2$, in which case



          $$int_0^{29/28}{dxoversqrt{1-left(28xover29right)^2}}={29piover56}approx1.6269$$






          share|cite|improve this answer












          Here is a counterexample with polynomials:



          Let $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ and $f_s(x)=x^2$. We need to check that $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$ and that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$. Once we do that, it's clear that $x_l=x_s=1$, so that $int_0^{x_s}{dxoversqrt{1-f_s(x)}}ltint_0^{x_l}{dxoversqrt{1-f_l(x)}}$.



          To show that $f_l(x)={1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)$ is increasing, we take the first two derivatives:



          $$f_l'(x)={1over2}(1+2x-3x^2+4x^3)\
          f_l''(x)={1over2}(2-6x+12x^2)=1-3x+6x^2$$



          Since $3^2-4cdot1cdot6=-15lt0$, the second derivative is never $0$, hence, since $f_l''(0)=1$, it's always positive. This implies the first derivative is always increasing, so, since $f'(0)={1over2}$, the first derivative is positive for $xge0$. This in turn implies the function $f_l$ is increasing on $[0,infty)$.



          To show that $f_l(x)ge f_s(x)$ for $xin[0,infty)$, we see that



          $$f_l(x)-f_s(x)={1over2}(x-x^2-x^3+x^4)={1over2}x(1-x)^2(1+x)ge0$$



          Just for fun, the integrals are



          $$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-{1over2}(x+x^2-x^3+x^4)}}approx1.62868$$



          (according to Wolfram Alpha) and



          $$int_0^1{dxoversqrt{1-x^2}}={piover2}approx1.5708$$



          Finally, if you want an example with $x_sgt x_l$, you can take $f_s(x)=(28x/29)^2$, in which case



          $$int_0^{29/28}{dxoversqrt{1-left(28xover29right)^2}}={29piover56}approx1.6269$$







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          answered Nov 19 at 15:32









          Barry Cipra

          58.4k652121




          58.4k652121






















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              Define $f_s(x) = x-1,$ $f_l(x)=(x-1)/2$ for $xin [0,1],$ $f_l(x)=2(x-1)$ for $x>1.$ We then have $x_s=x_l =1.$ However



              $$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} < int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}.$$






              share|cite|improve this answer

























                up vote
                1
                down vote













                Define $f_s(x) = x-1,$ $f_l(x)=(x-1)/2$ for $xin [0,1],$ $f_l(x)=2(x-1)$ for $x>1.$ We then have $x_s=x_l =1.$ However



                $$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} < int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}.$$






                share|cite|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote









                  Define $f_s(x) = x-1,$ $f_l(x)=(x-1)/2$ for $xin [0,1],$ $f_l(x)=2(x-1)$ for $x>1.$ We then have $x_s=x_l =1.$ However



                  $$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} < int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}.$$






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  Define $f_s(x) = x-1,$ $f_l(x)=(x-1)/2$ for $xin [0,1],$ $f_l(x)=2(x-1)$ for $x>1.$ We then have $x_s=x_l =1.$ However



                  $$ int_0^{x_s} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_s(x)}} < int_0^{x_l} frac{{rm d}x}{sqrt{1-f_l(x)}}.$$







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Nov 18 at 18:57









                  zhw.

                  70.7k43075




                  70.7k43075






























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