$Kb=Kf$, $Ha=Hg$ implies $Kba=Kfg$?
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0
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Let $G$ be a group, $H<G$ a subgroup of $G$ and $K<H$ a subgroup of $H$. I'm trying to prove the following:
If $Ha=Hg$, $Kb=Kf$ for $a,g in G$, $b,f in H$ then $Kba=Kfg$.
I tried to show that given $ag^{-1} in H $, $bf^{-1} in K $ we have $ba(fg)^{-1} in K$, that is $ bag^{-1}f^{-1} in K$. But $ag^{-1} in H $ is "stuck in the middle" and I'm not sure how to continue.
abstract-algebra group-theory
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
Let $G$ be a group, $H<G$ a subgroup of $G$ and $K<H$ a subgroup of $H$. I'm trying to prove the following:
If $Ha=Hg$, $Kb=Kf$ for $a,g in G$, $b,f in H$ then $Kba=Kfg$.
I tried to show that given $ag^{-1} in H $, $bf^{-1} in K $ we have $ba(fg)^{-1} in K$, that is $ bag^{-1}f^{-1} in K$. But $ag^{-1} in H $ is "stuck in the middle" and I'm not sure how to continue.
abstract-algebra group-theory
Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 13:01
If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
– egreg
Nov 18 at 16:42
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
Let $G$ be a group, $H<G$ a subgroup of $G$ and $K<H$ a subgroup of $H$. I'm trying to prove the following:
If $Ha=Hg$, $Kb=Kf$ for $a,g in G$, $b,f in H$ then $Kba=Kfg$.
I tried to show that given $ag^{-1} in H $, $bf^{-1} in K $ we have $ba(fg)^{-1} in K$, that is $ bag^{-1}f^{-1} in K$. But $ag^{-1} in H $ is "stuck in the middle" and I'm not sure how to continue.
abstract-algebra group-theory
Let $G$ be a group, $H<G$ a subgroup of $G$ and $K<H$ a subgroup of $H$. I'm trying to prove the following:
If $Ha=Hg$, $Kb=Kf$ for $a,g in G$, $b,f in H$ then $Kba=Kfg$.
I tried to show that given $ag^{-1} in H $, $bf^{-1} in K $ we have $ba(fg)^{-1} in K$, that is $ bag^{-1}f^{-1} in K$. But $ag^{-1} in H $ is "stuck in the middle" and I'm not sure how to continue.
abstract-algebra group-theory
abstract-algebra group-theory
asked Nov 18 at 12:48
user401516
84728
84728
Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 13:01
If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
– egreg
Nov 18 at 16:42
add a comment |
Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 13:01
If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
– egreg
Nov 18 at 16:42
Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 13:01
Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 13:01
If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
– egreg
Nov 18 at 16:42
If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
– egreg
Nov 18 at 16:42
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $
and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.
Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.
$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.
See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:
Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.
Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.
However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.
Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.
This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21
The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35
@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10
@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04
I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $
and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.
Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.
$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.
See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $
and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.
Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.
$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.
See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $
and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.
Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.
$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.
I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $
and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.
Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.
$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.
answered Nov 18 at 13:19
mathnoob
1,137116
1,137116
See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24
add a comment |
See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24
See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24
See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:
Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.
Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.
However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.
Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.
This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21
The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35
@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10
@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04
I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:
Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.
Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.
However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.
Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.
This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21
The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35
@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10
@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04
I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:
Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.
Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.
However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.
Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.
You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:
Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.
Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.
However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.
Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.
answered Nov 18 at 13:05
Yanko
5,103722
5,103722
This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21
The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35
@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10
@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04
I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30
add a comment |
This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21
The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35
@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10
@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04
I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30
This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21
This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21
The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35
The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35
@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10
@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10
@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04
@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04
I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30
I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30
add a comment |
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Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 13:01
If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
– egreg
Nov 18 at 16:42