$Kb=Kf$, $Ha=Hg$ implies $Kba=Kfg$?











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0
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Let $G$ be a group, $H<G$ a subgroup of $G$ and $K<H$ a subgroup of $H$. I'm trying to prove the following:



If $Ha=Hg$, $Kb=Kf$ for $a,g in G$, $b,f in H$ then $Kba=Kfg$.



I tried to show that given $ag^{-1} in H $, $bf^{-1} in K $ we have $ba(fg)^{-1} in K$, that is $ bag^{-1}f^{-1} in K$. But $ag^{-1} in H $ is "stuck in the middle" and I'm not sure how to continue.










share|cite|improve this question






















  • Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 13:01










  • If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
    – egreg
    Nov 18 at 16:42















up vote
0
down vote

favorite












Let $G$ be a group, $H<G$ a subgroup of $G$ and $K<H$ a subgroup of $H$. I'm trying to prove the following:



If $Ha=Hg$, $Kb=Kf$ for $a,g in G$, $b,f in H$ then $Kba=Kfg$.



I tried to show that given $ag^{-1} in H $, $bf^{-1} in K $ we have $ba(fg)^{-1} in K$, that is $ bag^{-1}f^{-1} in K$. But $ag^{-1} in H $ is "stuck in the middle" and I'm not sure how to continue.










share|cite|improve this question






















  • Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 13:01










  • If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
    – egreg
    Nov 18 at 16:42













up vote
0
down vote

favorite









up vote
0
down vote

favorite











Let $G$ be a group, $H<G$ a subgroup of $G$ and $K<H$ a subgroup of $H$. I'm trying to prove the following:



If $Ha=Hg$, $Kb=Kf$ for $a,g in G$, $b,f in H$ then $Kba=Kfg$.



I tried to show that given $ag^{-1} in H $, $bf^{-1} in K $ we have $ba(fg)^{-1} in K$, that is $ bag^{-1}f^{-1} in K$. But $ag^{-1} in H $ is "stuck in the middle" and I'm not sure how to continue.










share|cite|improve this question













Let $G$ be a group, $H<G$ a subgroup of $G$ and $K<H$ a subgroup of $H$. I'm trying to prove the following:



If $Ha=Hg$, $Kb=Kf$ for $a,g in G$, $b,f in H$ then $Kba=Kfg$.



I tried to show that given $ag^{-1} in H $, $bf^{-1} in K $ we have $ba(fg)^{-1} in K$, that is $ bag^{-1}f^{-1} in K$. But $ag^{-1} in H $ is "stuck in the middle" and I'm not sure how to continue.







abstract-algebra group-theory






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share|cite|improve this question










asked Nov 18 at 12:48









user401516

84728




84728












  • Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 13:01










  • If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
    – egreg
    Nov 18 at 16:42


















  • Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 13:01










  • If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
    – egreg
    Nov 18 at 16:42
















Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 13:01




Are you sure this is true? It sounds like there's a counter-example to me.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 13:01












If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
– egreg
Nov 18 at 16:42




If $K=H$, the property is equivalent to $H$ being a normal subgroup.
– egreg
Nov 18 at 16:42










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
2
down vote













I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $



and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.



Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.



$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • See the comment I wrote to Yanko
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:24




















up vote
1
down vote













You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:



Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.



Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.



Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.



However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.



Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:21












  • The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
    – user10354138
    Nov 18 at 13:35










  • @user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 14:10










  • @user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 15:04










  • I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 15:30











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2 Answers
2






active

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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
2
down vote













I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $



and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.



Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.



$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • See the comment I wrote to Yanko
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:24

















up vote
2
down vote













I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $



and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.



Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.



$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • See the comment I wrote to Yanko
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:24















up vote
2
down vote










up vote
2
down vote









I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $



and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.



Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.



$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.






share|cite|improve this answer












I think this is not true:
Here is a counter example:
$G=S_4$, $K=S_2={e,(12)}$ and $H=S_3={e,(12),(13),(23),(1 2 3),(1 3 2)} $



and choose
$b=(123), f=(23), a=(14),g=(142)$.



Now
$Ha={(14),(142),(1423),(1432),(14)(23),(143)}=Hg$ and $Kb={(123),(23)}=Kf$.



$ba=(1423)$ and $fg=(1432)$, so now $Kba={(1423),(14)(23)}$ and $Kfg={(1432),(143)}$ so we can see that $Kba neq Kfg$.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Nov 18 at 13:19









mathnoob

1,137116




1,137116












  • See the comment I wrote to Yanko
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:24




















  • See the comment I wrote to Yanko
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:24


















See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24






See the comment I wrote to Yanko
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:24












up vote
1
down vote













You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:



Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.



Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.



Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.



However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.



Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:21












  • The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
    – user10354138
    Nov 18 at 13:35










  • @user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 14:10










  • @user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 15:04










  • I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 15:30















up vote
1
down vote













You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:



Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.



Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.



Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.



However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.



Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:21












  • The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
    – user10354138
    Nov 18 at 13:35










  • @user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 14:10










  • @user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 15:04










  • I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 15:30













up vote
1
down vote










up vote
1
down vote









You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:



Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.



Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.



Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.



However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.



Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.






share|cite|improve this answer












You can't prove this because it's wrong, here's a counter-example:



Take $G=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z} oplus mathbb{Z}/5mathbb{Z}$ (additive). $H$ be the subgroup corresponding to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}oplus mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ and $K$ to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.



Now choose $b,f,g = 0_G$ and $a = (0,1,0)$.



Clearly, $K+b=K+f$ because $b-f=0_G$ and $H+a=H+g$ because $a-g=ain H$.



However $K+b+a = K+a not = K = K+f +g$. Because $anotin K$.



Note: You can construct infinitely many counter-examples by simply taking any $G$ and $H$ and any proper subgroup $K$ of $H$ (i.e. $Knot = H$) then take $b,f,g=0$ and $a$ be any element in $H$ that is not in $K$.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Nov 18 at 13:05









Yanko

5,103722




5,103722












  • This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:21












  • The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
    – user10354138
    Nov 18 at 13:35










  • @user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 14:10










  • @user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 15:04










  • I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 15:30


















  • This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 13:21












  • The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
    – user10354138
    Nov 18 at 13:35










  • @user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 14:10










  • @user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
    – Yanko
    Nov 18 at 15:04










  • I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
    – user401516
    Nov 18 at 15:30
















This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21






This is interesting. The reason I'm trying to prove it is actually an answer to this post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/730728/… (I'm trying to prove the function defined in the first answer is well defined). Does this mean the solution there is wrong?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 13:21














The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35




The solution there is not wrong. You are attempting to generalize the result too much (allowing all $a,b,f,g$ to vary arbitrarily as opposed to within fixed transversals).
– user10354138
Nov 18 at 13:35












@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10




@user10354138 How would you prove the function defined there is well defined?
– user401516
Nov 18 at 14:10












@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04




@user401516 I suggest you ask that as another question. Put a link to that question and say that you don't understand why the function is well defined.
– Yanko
Nov 18 at 15:04












I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30




I actually did that: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3001398/…
– user401516
Nov 18 at 15:30


















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