Arbitrage possible with negative rate of interest?











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Given a security having price $1$ at time $t=0$, and price $1+r$ in all world states at $t=T$, i.e., a risk-free bond with interest rate $r$. At $t=0$, short this and also buy an other risk-free bond. At $t=T$, sell the bond and use the $1+r$ to pay back the loan. So this strategy has no arbitrage even if $r < 0$. However if you take the unit of currency obtained from shorting the bond at $t=0$ and stuff it safely under a mattress until $t=T$, it will then be worth more than the $1+r$ you must pay the bank at $t=T$ if $r<0$. So with $0$ invested at $t=0$ a risk-free profit(arbitrage) of $|r|$ is realized at $t=T$ if $r<0$.



So it seems that the existence of a safe mattress provides a natural floor of $0$ to the risk-free rate...










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  • Is this rate the nominal or the real rate? I'm wondering if real rates could ever possibly be negative, wouldn't this contradict the fact that money has time value?
    – Vim
    Nov 26 at 12:24










  • @vim Right. So this would be the nominal interest rate as appears in arbitrage proofs as in e.g. Shreve Stoch Calc for Finance I, p. 2. There he says: ~ ‘r usually > 0, but only r > -1 is required’... We don’t usually consider inflation in arbitrage arguments (Should we?).
    – Don Slowik
    Nov 26 at 13:59












  • You shouldn't include inflation in arbitrage arguments and real rates have been negative. Nominal rates have been negative and we haven't had deflation in the EU, at least officially.
    – Bob Jansen
    Nov 26 at 14:30










  • I see that inflation is a non-issue in using arbitrage to set up equivalent portfolios and thereby pricing. It may be an issue in deciding if some money making scheme is worthwhile over time.
    – Don Slowik
    Nov 26 at 15:16















up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












Given a security having price $1$ at time $t=0$, and price $1+r$ in all world states at $t=T$, i.e., a risk-free bond with interest rate $r$. At $t=0$, short this and also buy an other risk-free bond. At $t=T$, sell the bond and use the $1+r$ to pay back the loan. So this strategy has no arbitrage even if $r < 0$. However if you take the unit of currency obtained from shorting the bond at $t=0$ and stuff it safely under a mattress until $t=T$, it will then be worth more than the $1+r$ you must pay the bank at $t=T$ if $r<0$. So with $0$ invested at $t=0$ a risk-free profit(arbitrage) of $|r|$ is realized at $t=T$ if $r<0$.



So it seems that the existence of a safe mattress provides a natural floor of $0$ to the risk-free rate...










share|improve this question









New contributor




Don Slowik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • Is this rate the nominal or the real rate? I'm wondering if real rates could ever possibly be negative, wouldn't this contradict the fact that money has time value?
    – Vim
    Nov 26 at 12:24










  • @vim Right. So this would be the nominal interest rate as appears in arbitrage proofs as in e.g. Shreve Stoch Calc for Finance I, p. 2. There he says: ~ ‘r usually > 0, but only r > -1 is required’... We don’t usually consider inflation in arbitrage arguments (Should we?).
    – Don Slowik
    Nov 26 at 13:59












  • You shouldn't include inflation in arbitrage arguments and real rates have been negative. Nominal rates have been negative and we haven't had deflation in the EU, at least officially.
    – Bob Jansen
    Nov 26 at 14:30










  • I see that inflation is a non-issue in using arbitrage to set up equivalent portfolios and thereby pricing. It may be an issue in deciding if some money making scheme is worthwhile over time.
    – Don Slowik
    Nov 26 at 15:16













up vote
4
down vote

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up vote
4
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1





Given a security having price $1$ at time $t=0$, and price $1+r$ in all world states at $t=T$, i.e., a risk-free bond with interest rate $r$. At $t=0$, short this and also buy an other risk-free bond. At $t=T$, sell the bond and use the $1+r$ to pay back the loan. So this strategy has no arbitrage even if $r < 0$. However if you take the unit of currency obtained from shorting the bond at $t=0$ and stuff it safely under a mattress until $t=T$, it will then be worth more than the $1+r$ you must pay the bank at $t=T$ if $r<0$. So with $0$ invested at $t=0$ a risk-free profit(arbitrage) of $|r|$ is realized at $t=T$ if $r<0$.



So it seems that the existence of a safe mattress provides a natural floor of $0$ to the risk-free rate...










share|improve this question









New contributor




Don Slowik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











Given a security having price $1$ at time $t=0$, and price $1+r$ in all world states at $t=T$, i.e., a risk-free bond with interest rate $r$. At $t=0$, short this and also buy an other risk-free bond. At $t=T$, sell the bond and use the $1+r$ to pay back the loan. So this strategy has no arbitrage even if $r < 0$. However if you take the unit of currency obtained from shorting the bond at $t=0$ and stuff it safely under a mattress until $t=T$, it will then be worth more than the $1+r$ you must pay the bank at $t=T$ if $r<0$. So with $0$ invested at $t=0$ a risk-free profit(arbitrage) of $|r|$ is realized at $t=T$ if $r<0$.



So it seems that the existence of a safe mattress provides a natural floor of $0$ to the risk-free rate...







interest-rates arbitrage






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edited Nov 26 at 13:44





















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asked Nov 25 at 19:58









Don Slowik

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New contributor




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New contributor





Don Slowik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Don Slowik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • Is this rate the nominal or the real rate? I'm wondering if real rates could ever possibly be negative, wouldn't this contradict the fact that money has time value?
    – Vim
    Nov 26 at 12:24










  • @vim Right. So this would be the nominal interest rate as appears in arbitrage proofs as in e.g. Shreve Stoch Calc for Finance I, p. 2. There he says: ~ ‘r usually > 0, but only r > -1 is required’... We don’t usually consider inflation in arbitrage arguments (Should we?).
    – Don Slowik
    Nov 26 at 13:59












  • You shouldn't include inflation in arbitrage arguments and real rates have been negative. Nominal rates have been negative and we haven't had deflation in the EU, at least officially.
    – Bob Jansen
    Nov 26 at 14:30










  • I see that inflation is a non-issue in using arbitrage to set up equivalent portfolios and thereby pricing. It may be an issue in deciding if some money making scheme is worthwhile over time.
    – Don Slowik
    Nov 26 at 15:16


















  • Is this rate the nominal or the real rate? I'm wondering if real rates could ever possibly be negative, wouldn't this contradict the fact that money has time value?
    – Vim
    Nov 26 at 12:24










  • @vim Right. So this would be the nominal interest rate as appears in arbitrage proofs as in e.g. Shreve Stoch Calc for Finance I, p. 2. There he says: ~ ‘r usually > 0, but only r > -1 is required’... We don’t usually consider inflation in arbitrage arguments (Should we?).
    – Don Slowik
    Nov 26 at 13:59












  • You shouldn't include inflation in arbitrage arguments and real rates have been negative. Nominal rates have been negative and we haven't had deflation in the EU, at least officially.
    – Bob Jansen
    Nov 26 at 14:30










  • I see that inflation is a non-issue in using arbitrage to set up equivalent portfolios and thereby pricing. It may be an issue in deciding if some money making scheme is worthwhile over time.
    – Don Slowik
    Nov 26 at 15:16
















Is this rate the nominal or the real rate? I'm wondering if real rates could ever possibly be negative, wouldn't this contradict the fact that money has time value?
– Vim
Nov 26 at 12:24




Is this rate the nominal or the real rate? I'm wondering if real rates could ever possibly be negative, wouldn't this contradict the fact that money has time value?
– Vim
Nov 26 at 12:24












@vim Right. So this would be the nominal interest rate as appears in arbitrage proofs as in e.g. Shreve Stoch Calc for Finance I, p. 2. There he says: ~ ‘r usually > 0, but only r > -1 is required’... We don’t usually consider inflation in arbitrage arguments (Should we?).
– Don Slowik
Nov 26 at 13:59






@vim Right. So this would be the nominal interest rate as appears in arbitrage proofs as in e.g. Shreve Stoch Calc for Finance I, p. 2. There he says: ~ ‘r usually > 0, but only r > -1 is required’... We don’t usually consider inflation in arbitrage arguments (Should we?).
– Don Slowik
Nov 26 at 13:59














You shouldn't include inflation in arbitrage arguments and real rates have been negative. Nominal rates have been negative and we haven't had deflation in the EU, at least officially.
– Bob Jansen
Nov 26 at 14:30




You shouldn't include inflation in arbitrage arguments and real rates have been negative. Nominal rates have been negative and we haven't had deflation in the EU, at least officially.
– Bob Jansen
Nov 26 at 14:30












I see that inflation is a non-issue in using arbitrage to set up equivalent portfolios and thereby pricing. It may be an issue in deciding if some money making scheme is worthwhile over time.
– Don Slowik
Nov 26 at 15:16




I see that inflation is a non-issue in using arbitrage to set up equivalent portfolios and thereby pricing. It may be an issue in deciding if some money making scheme is worthwhile over time.
– Don Slowik
Nov 26 at 15:16










3 Answers
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up vote
8
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As a practical aside on a large scale, I have heard the rumours of European banks and even a consortium of banks considering plans to build an ultra secure deposit facility for cash, and also the ECBs push back for doing so based on an unwillingness to actually provide physical currency. I have never heard about the actual realisation of any of these rumours and I suspect due to the following reasons...



What is the cost of building, operating and controlling a secure facility for cash? I have no idea, but I would suspect if you planned on housing at least a billion physical Euros it would cost in excess of 10 million Euros to construct, nevermind security overheads and the risk of transporting large quantities of Euros back and forth between destinations must account for some average loss due to criminality. So even for two or three years the pickup of the 0.4% carry due to interest rate differential would probably not recoup this cost.



Added to that the availability of physical cash to make the endeavour worthwhile doesn't exist. The ECB balance sheet shows in 2017 there is 1.2Tr banknotes in circulation roughly EUR2,500 per citizen, while there is 1.9Tr (average of ~2bn per institution) on electronic account central bank accounts. So given all these broad numbers it doesn't seem to be a practical, flexible or profit generating endeavour to undertake. For large amounts of cash there are simply no other ways of allocating cash therefore, either than to central bank deposits, short term government bonds, or collateralised repo, all at negative rates.



On a smaller scale, bank institutions offer the financial compensation scheme, and often (in order to attract cash capital for their regulatory capital ratios) banks will offer accounts for these smaller deposits at zero percent anyway, so it is the same effect as a mattress and safer. As a smaller investor you are often subject to large bid offer spreads, no economies of scale on brokerage costs and so it all comes out in the wash.



What seems like arbitrage on paper, probably ends up being a big waste of time.






share|improve this answer




























    up vote
    4
    down vote













    Indeed, interest rates have been below zero and your logic appears sound.



    My conclusion: safe mattresses that are large enough don’t exist.






    share|improve this answer





















    • So within practical market considerations (that may even include inflation; see@vim above), small deviations from strict arb free limits, in this case r > 0, happen. But how can Shreve state only r > -1 is required? I think if r ~ -0.8 or so, mattresses are big enough.
      – Don Slowik
      Nov 26 at 14:19










    • I don't fully understand your comment, might it be a new question?
      – Bob Jansen
      Nov 26 at 14:30










    • Well if I have proven that r < 0 results in arb and is therefore disallowed, the fact that r < 0 exist would be an illustration that some of the arb assumptions are being stretched. E.g. borrowing 100 to make 0.5 in one year at r=-.05 is not worth the risk a mouse eats the bill. But if r=-.80, I would take that risk to make the 80 per year. We will never see r so small that people actually start trading this strategy on it. Any real arb strategy has to deal with all the issues, size of safe mattresses, as you point out. There may be another Why r > -1? question.
      – Don Slowik
      Nov 26 at 15:30












    • I think that is outside of the scope of this question and deserves a new question.
      – Bob Jansen
      Nov 26 at 15:51


















    up vote
    1
    down vote














    1. A bank is the mattress you speak of

    2. They all have a credit risk

    3. Even in the absence of taxes on deposits, rates have still been negative in Euroland for some time, in a multi-trillion Euro market


    There is no magic mattress, and no zero floor. In reality inflation has been higher than base rate for years in Europe, resulting in an implicit negative real rate long before the headline rate was negative.



    The only real mechanical problem with negative rates is that a negative coupon requires the holder to pay, so they always set the coupon at or above zero and floor inflation-linked bonds. The yield can still be negative with a positive coupon.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 1. Yes, if the bank allows deposits at r = 0 while I can borrow at r < 0.
      – Don Slowik
      2 days ago










    • It seems to me that inflation does not enter the picture if you are using no arbitrage to set up an equivalent portfolio to price a derivative. It may enter the picture when you have identified an arbitrage opportunity, but only if the trading strategy requires an initial investment up front - then ur profit must beat inflation. The strategy I suggest in the OP requires no initial capital and is therefore immune to inflation - yes the buying power of the profit is reduced but you still realize a free profit.
      – Don Slowik
      2 days ago












    • @DonSlowik: The point there is that if you start adding security to your mattress in order to lower the risk of just losing the money to theft, the thing you will be building is a bank. So for the same reasons banks aren't offering zero, you won't obtain zero.
      – Phil H
      2 days ago










    • @DonSlowik: The inflation comment was just to point out that real rates have been negative for some time, so any investment strategy which even comes out flat in real terms would beat deposits, even when rates are positive. People treat negative rates like some floor, when it's both nonexistant and arbitrary.
      – Phil H
      2 days ago











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    3 Answers
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    3 Answers
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    up vote
    8
    down vote













    As a practical aside on a large scale, I have heard the rumours of European banks and even a consortium of banks considering plans to build an ultra secure deposit facility for cash, and also the ECBs push back for doing so based on an unwillingness to actually provide physical currency. I have never heard about the actual realisation of any of these rumours and I suspect due to the following reasons...



    What is the cost of building, operating and controlling a secure facility for cash? I have no idea, but I would suspect if you planned on housing at least a billion physical Euros it would cost in excess of 10 million Euros to construct, nevermind security overheads and the risk of transporting large quantities of Euros back and forth between destinations must account for some average loss due to criminality. So even for two or three years the pickup of the 0.4% carry due to interest rate differential would probably not recoup this cost.



    Added to that the availability of physical cash to make the endeavour worthwhile doesn't exist. The ECB balance sheet shows in 2017 there is 1.2Tr banknotes in circulation roughly EUR2,500 per citizen, while there is 1.9Tr (average of ~2bn per institution) on electronic account central bank accounts. So given all these broad numbers it doesn't seem to be a practical, flexible or profit generating endeavour to undertake. For large amounts of cash there are simply no other ways of allocating cash therefore, either than to central bank deposits, short term government bonds, or collateralised repo, all at negative rates.



    On a smaller scale, bank institutions offer the financial compensation scheme, and often (in order to attract cash capital for their regulatory capital ratios) banks will offer accounts for these smaller deposits at zero percent anyway, so it is the same effect as a mattress and safer. As a smaller investor you are often subject to large bid offer spreads, no economies of scale on brokerage costs and so it all comes out in the wash.



    What seems like arbitrage on paper, probably ends up being a big waste of time.






    share|improve this answer

























      up vote
      8
      down vote













      As a practical aside on a large scale, I have heard the rumours of European banks and even a consortium of banks considering plans to build an ultra secure deposit facility for cash, and also the ECBs push back for doing so based on an unwillingness to actually provide physical currency. I have never heard about the actual realisation of any of these rumours and I suspect due to the following reasons...



      What is the cost of building, operating and controlling a secure facility for cash? I have no idea, but I would suspect if you planned on housing at least a billion physical Euros it would cost in excess of 10 million Euros to construct, nevermind security overheads and the risk of transporting large quantities of Euros back and forth between destinations must account for some average loss due to criminality. So even for two or three years the pickup of the 0.4% carry due to interest rate differential would probably not recoup this cost.



      Added to that the availability of physical cash to make the endeavour worthwhile doesn't exist. The ECB balance sheet shows in 2017 there is 1.2Tr banknotes in circulation roughly EUR2,500 per citizen, while there is 1.9Tr (average of ~2bn per institution) on electronic account central bank accounts. So given all these broad numbers it doesn't seem to be a practical, flexible or profit generating endeavour to undertake. For large amounts of cash there are simply no other ways of allocating cash therefore, either than to central bank deposits, short term government bonds, or collateralised repo, all at negative rates.



      On a smaller scale, bank institutions offer the financial compensation scheme, and often (in order to attract cash capital for their regulatory capital ratios) banks will offer accounts for these smaller deposits at zero percent anyway, so it is the same effect as a mattress and safer. As a smaller investor you are often subject to large bid offer spreads, no economies of scale on brokerage costs and so it all comes out in the wash.



      What seems like arbitrage on paper, probably ends up being a big waste of time.






      share|improve this answer























        up vote
        8
        down vote










        up vote
        8
        down vote









        As a practical aside on a large scale, I have heard the rumours of European banks and even a consortium of banks considering plans to build an ultra secure deposit facility for cash, and also the ECBs push back for doing so based on an unwillingness to actually provide physical currency. I have never heard about the actual realisation of any of these rumours and I suspect due to the following reasons...



        What is the cost of building, operating and controlling a secure facility for cash? I have no idea, but I would suspect if you planned on housing at least a billion physical Euros it would cost in excess of 10 million Euros to construct, nevermind security overheads and the risk of transporting large quantities of Euros back and forth between destinations must account for some average loss due to criminality. So even for two or three years the pickup of the 0.4% carry due to interest rate differential would probably not recoup this cost.



        Added to that the availability of physical cash to make the endeavour worthwhile doesn't exist. The ECB balance sheet shows in 2017 there is 1.2Tr banknotes in circulation roughly EUR2,500 per citizen, while there is 1.9Tr (average of ~2bn per institution) on electronic account central bank accounts. So given all these broad numbers it doesn't seem to be a practical, flexible or profit generating endeavour to undertake. For large amounts of cash there are simply no other ways of allocating cash therefore, either than to central bank deposits, short term government bonds, or collateralised repo, all at negative rates.



        On a smaller scale, bank institutions offer the financial compensation scheme, and often (in order to attract cash capital for their regulatory capital ratios) banks will offer accounts for these smaller deposits at zero percent anyway, so it is the same effect as a mattress and safer. As a smaller investor you are often subject to large bid offer spreads, no economies of scale on brokerage costs and so it all comes out in the wash.



        What seems like arbitrage on paper, probably ends up being a big waste of time.






        share|improve this answer












        As a practical aside on a large scale, I have heard the rumours of European banks and even a consortium of banks considering plans to build an ultra secure deposit facility for cash, and also the ECBs push back for doing so based on an unwillingness to actually provide physical currency. I have never heard about the actual realisation of any of these rumours and I suspect due to the following reasons...



        What is the cost of building, operating and controlling a secure facility for cash? I have no idea, but I would suspect if you planned on housing at least a billion physical Euros it would cost in excess of 10 million Euros to construct, nevermind security overheads and the risk of transporting large quantities of Euros back and forth between destinations must account for some average loss due to criminality. So even for two or three years the pickup of the 0.4% carry due to interest rate differential would probably not recoup this cost.



        Added to that the availability of physical cash to make the endeavour worthwhile doesn't exist. The ECB balance sheet shows in 2017 there is 1.2Tr banknotes in circulation roughly EUR2,500 per citizen, while there is 1.9Tr (average of ~2bn per institution) on electronic account central bank accounts. So given all these broad numbers it doesn't seem to be a practical, flexible or profit generating endeavour to undertake. For large amounts of cash there are simply no other ways of allocating cash therefore, either than to central bank deposits, short term government bonds, or collateralised repo, all at negative rates.



        On a smaller scale, bank institutions offer the financial compensation scheme, and often (in order to attract cash capital for their regulatory capital ratios) banks will offer accounts for these smaller deposits at zero percent anyway, so it is the same effect as a mattress and safer. As a smaller investor you are often subject to large bid offer spreads, no economies of scale on brokerage costs and so it all comes out in the wash.



        What seems like arbitrage on paper, probably ends up being a big waste of time.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Nov 25 at 20:54









        Attack68

        2,596218




        2,596218






















            up vote
            4
            down vote













            Indeed, interest rates have been below zero and your logic appears sound.



            My conclusion: safe mattresses that are large enough don’t exist.






            share|improve this answer





















            • So within practical market considerations (that may even include inflation; see@vim above), small deviations from strict arb free limits, in this case r > 0, happen. But how can Shreve state only r > -1 is required? I think if r ~ -0.8 or so, mattresses are big enough.
              – Don Slowik
              Nov 26 at 14:19










            • I don't fully understand your comment, might it be a new question?
              – Bob Jansen
              Nov 26 at 14:30










            • Well if I have proven that r < 0 results in arb and is therefore disallowed, the fact that r < 0 exist would be an illustration that some of the arb assumptions are being stretched. E.g. borrowing 100 to make 0.5 in one year at r=-.05 is not worth the risk a mouse eats the bill. But if r=-.80, I would take that risk to make the 80 per year. We will never see r so small that people actually start trading this strategy on it. Any real arb strategy has to deal with all the issues, size of safe mattresses, as you point out. There may be another Why r > -1? question.
              – Don Slowik
              Nov 26 at 15:30












            • I think that is outside of the scope of this question and deserves a new question.
              – Bob Jansen
              Nov 26 at 15:51















            up vote
            4
            down vote













            Indeed, interest rates have been below zero and your logic appears sound.



            My conclusion: safe mattresses that are large enough don’t exist.






            share|improve this answer





















            • So within practical market considerations (that may even include inflation; see@vim above), small deviations from strict arb free limits, in this case r > 0, happen. But how can Shreve state only r > -1 is required? I think if r ~ -0.8 or so, mattresses are big enough.
              – Don Slowik
              Nov 26 at 14:19










            • I don't fully understand your comment, might it be a new question?
              – Bob Jansen
              Nov 26 at 14:30










            • Well if I have proven that r < 0 results in arb and is therefore disallowed, the fact that r < 0 exist would be an illustration that some of the arb assumptions are being stretched. E.g. borrowing 100 to make 0.5 in one year at r=-.05 is not worth the risk a mouse eats the bill. But if r=-.80, I would take that risk to make the 80 per year. We will never see r so small that people actually start trading this strategy on it. Any real arb strategy has to deal with all the issues, size of safe mattresses, as you point out. There may be another Why r > -1? question.
              – Don Slowik
              Nov 26 at 15:30












            • I think that is outside of the scope of this question and deserves a new question.
              – Bob Jansen
              Nov 26 at 15:51













            up vote
            4
            down vote










            up vote
            4
            down vote









            Indeed, interest rates have been below zero and your logic appears sound.



            My conclusion: safe mattresses that are large enough don’t exist.






            share|improve this answer












            Indeed, interest rates have been below zero and your logic appears sound.



            My conclusion: safe mattresses that are large enough don’t exist.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Nov 25 at 20:39









            Bob Jansen

            3,23552044




            3,23552044












            • So within practical market considerations (that may even include inflation; see@vim above), small deviations from strict arb free limits, in this case r > 0, happen. But how can Shreve state only r > -1 is required? I think if r ~ -0.8 or so, mattresses are big enough.
              – Don Slowik
              Nov 26 at 14:19










            • I don't fully understand your comment, might it be a new question?
              – Bob Jansen
              Nov 26 at 14:30










            • Well if I have proven that r < 0 results in arb and is therefore disallowed, the fact that r < 0 exist would be an illustration that some of the arb assumptions are being stretched. E.g. borrowing 100 to make 0.5 in one year at r=-.05 is not worth the risk a mouse eats the bill. But if r=-.80, I would take that risk to make the 80 per year. We will never see r so small that people actually start trading this strategy on it. Any real arb strategy has to deal with all the issues, size of safe mattresses, as you point out. There may be another Why r > -1? question.
              – Don Slowik
              Nov 26 at 15:30












            • I think that is outside of the scope of this question and deserves a new question.
              – Bob Jansen
              Nov 26 at 15:51


















            • So within practical market considerations (that may even include inflation; see@vim above), small deviations from strict arb free limits, in this case r > 0, happen. But how can Shreve state only r > -1 is required? I think if r ~ -0.8 or so, mattresses are big enough.
              – Don Slowik
              Nov 26 at 14:19










            • I don't fully understand your comment, might it be a new question?
              – Bob Jansen
              Nov 26 at 14:30










            • Well if I have proven that r < 0 results in arb and is therefore disallowed, the fact that r < 0 exist would be an illustration that some of the arb assumptions are being stretched. E.g. borrowing 100 to make 0.5 in one year at r=-.05 is not worth the risk a mouse eats the bill. But if r=-.80, I would take that risk to make the 80 per year. We will never see r so small that people actually start trading this strategy on it. Any real arb strategy has to deal with all the issues, size of safe mattresses, as you point out. There may be another Why r > -1? question.
              – Don Slowik
              Nov 26 at 15:30












            • I think that is outside of the scope of this question and deserves a new question.
              – Bob Jansen
              Nov 26 at 15:51
















            So within practical market considerations (that may even include inflation; see@vim above), small deviations from strict arb free limits, in this case r > 0, happen. But how can Shreve state only r > -1 is required? I think if r ~ -0.8 or so, mattresses are big enough.
            – Don Slowik
            Nov 26 at 14:19




            So within practical market considerations (that may even include inflation; see@vim above), small deviations from strict arb free limits, in this case r > 0, happen. But how can Shreve state only r > -1 is required? I think if r ~ -0.8 or so, mattresses are big enough.
            – Don Slowik
            Nov 26 at 14:19












            I don't fully understand your comment, might it be a new question?
            – Bob Jansen
            Nov 26 at 14:30




            I don't fully understand your comment, might it be a new question?
            – Bob Jansen
            Nov 26 at 14:30












            Well if I have proven that r < 0 results in arb and is therefore disallowed, the fact that r < 0 exist would be an illustration that some of the arb assumptions are being stretched. E.g. borrowing 100 to make 0.5 in one year at r=-.05 is not worth the risk a mouse eats the bill. But if r=-.80, I would take that risk to make the 80 per year. We will never see r so small that people actually start trading this strategy on it. Any real arb strategy has to deal with all the issues, size of safe mattresses, as you point out. There may be another Why r > -1? question.
            – Don Slowik
            Nov 26 at 15:30






            Well if I have proven that r < 0 results in arb and is therefore disallowed, the fact that r < 0 exist would be an illustration that some of the arb assumptions are being stretched. E.g. borrowing 100 to make 0.5 in one year at r=-.05 is not worth the risk a mouse eats the bill. But if r=-.80, I would take that risk to make the 80 per year. We will never see r so small that people actually start trading this strategy on it. Any real arb strategy has to deal with all the issues, size of safe mattresses, as you point out. There may be another Why r > -1? question.
            – Don Slowik
            Nov 26 at 15:30














            I think that is outside of the scope of this question and deserves a new question.
            – Bob Jansen
            Nov 26 at 15:51




            I think that is outside of the scope of this question and deserves a new question.
            – Bob Jansen
            Nov 26 at 15:51










            up vote
            1
            down vote














            1. A bank is the mattress you speak of

            2. They all have a credit risk

            3. Even in the absence of taxes on deposits, rates have still been negative in Euroland for some time, in a multi-trillion Euro market


            There is no magic mattress, and no zero floor. In reality inflation has been higher than base rate for years in Europe, resulting in an implicit negative real rate long before the headline rate was negative.



            The only real mechanical problem with negative rates is that a negative coupon requires the holder to pay, so they always set the coupon at or above zero and floor inflation-linked bonds. The yield can still be negative with a positive coupon.






            share|improve this answer





















            • 1. Yes, if the bank allows deposits at r = 0 while I can borrow at r < 0.
              – Don Slowik
              2 days ago










            • It seems to me that inflation does not enter the picture if you are using no arbitrage to set up an equivalent portfolio to price a derivative. It may enter the picture when you have identified an arbitrage opportunity, but only if the trading strategy requires an initial investment up front - then ur profit must beat inflation. The strategy I suggest in the OP requires no initial capital and is therefore immune to inflation - yes the buying power of the profit is reduced but you still realize a free profit.
              – Don Slowik
              2 days ago












            • @DonSlowik: The point there is that if you start adding security to your mattress in order to lower the risk of just losing the money to theft, the thing you will be building is a bank. So for the same reasons banks aren't offering zero, you won't obtain zero.
              – Phil H
              2 days ago










            • @DonSlowik: The inflation comment was just to point out that real rates have been negative for some time, so any investment strategy which even comes out flat in real terms would beat deposits, even when rates are positive. People treat negative rates like some floor, when it's both nonexistant and arbitrary.
              – Phil H
              2 days ago















            up vote
            1
            down vote














            1. A bank is the mattress you speak of

            2. They all have a credit risk

            3. Even in the absence of taxes on deposits, rates have still been negative in Euroland for some time, in a multi-trillion Euro market


            There is no magic mattress, and no zero floor. In reality inflation has been higher than base rate for years in Europe, resulting in an implicit negative real rate long before the headline rate was negative.



            The only real mechanical problem with negative rates is that a negative coupon requires the holder to pay, so they always set the coupon at or above zero and floor inflation-linked bonds. The yield can still be negative with a positive coupon.






            share|improve this answer





















            • 1. Yes, if the bank allows deposits at r = 0 while I can borrow at r < 0.
              – Don Slowik
              2 days ago










            • It seems to me that inflation does not enter the picture if you are using no arbitrage to set up an equivalent portfolio to price a derivative. It may enter the picture when you have identified an arbitrage opportunity, but only if the trading strategy requires an initial investment up front - then ur profit must beat inflation. The strategy I suggest in the OP requires no initial capital and is therefore immune to inflation - yes the buying power of the profit is reduced but you still realize a free profit.
              – Don Slowik
              2 days ago












            • @DonSlowik: The point there is that if you start adding security to your mattress in order to lower the risk of just losing the money to theft, the thing you will be building is a bank. So for the same reasons banks aren't offering zero, you won't obtain zero.
              – Phil H
              2 days ago










            • @DonSlowik: The inflation comment was just to point out that real rates have been negative for some time, so any investment strategy which even comes out flat in real terms would beat deposits, even when rates are positive. People treat negative rates like some floor, when it's both nonexistant and arbitrary.
              – Phil H
              2 days ago













            up vote
            1
            down vote










            up vote
            1
            down vote










            1. A bank is the mattress you speak of

            2. They all have a credit risk

            3. Even in the absence of taxes on deposits, rates have still been negative in Euroland for some time, in a multi-trillion Euro market


            There is no magic mattress, and no zero floor. In reality inflation has been higher than base rate for years in Europe, resulting in an implicit negative real rate long before the headline rate was negative.



            The only real mechanical problem with negative rates is that a negative coupon requires the holder to pay, so they always set the coupon at or above zero and floor inflation-linked bonds. The yield can still be negative with a positive coupon.






            share|improve this answer













            1. A bank is the mattress you speak of

            2. They all have a credit risk

            3. Even in the absence of taxes on deposits, rates have still been negative in Euroland for some time, in a multi-trillion Euro market


            There is no magic mattress, and no zero floor. In reality inflation has been higher than base rate for years in Europe, resulting in an implicit negative real rate long before the headline rate was negative.



            The only real mechanical problem with negative rates is that a negative coupon requires the holder to pay, so they always set the coupon at or above zero and floor inflation-linked bonds. The yield can still be negative with a positive coupon.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Nov 26 at 10:01









            Phil H

            2,5611016




            2,5611016












            • 1. Yes, if the bank allows deposits at r = 0 while I can borrow at r < 0.
              – Don Slowik
              2 days ago










            • It seems to me that inflation does not enter the picture if you are using no arbitrage to set up an equivalent portfolio to price a derivative. It may enter the picture when you have identified an arbitrage opportunity, but only if the trading strategy requires an initial investment up front - then ur profit must beat inflation. The strategy I suggest in the OP requires no initial capital and is therefore immune to inflation - yes the buying power of the profit is reduced but you still realize a free profit.
              – Don Slowik
              2 days ago












            • @DonSlowik: The point there is that if you start adding security to your mattress in order to lower the risk of just losing the money to theft, the thing you will be building is a bank. So for the same reasons banks aren't offering zero, you won't obtain zero.
              – Phil H
              2 days ago










            • @DonSlowik: The inflation comment was just to point out that real rates have been negative for some time, so any investment strategy which even comes out flat in real terms would beat deposits, even when rates are positive. People treat negative rates like some floor, when it's both nonexistant and arbitrary.
              – Phil H
              2 days ago


















            • 1. Yes, if the bank allows deposits at r = 0 while I can borrow at r < 0.
              – Don Slowik
              2 days ago










            • It seems to me that inflation does not enter the picture if you are using no arbitrage to set up an equivalent portfolio to price a derivative. It may enter the picture when you have identified an arbitrage opportunity, but only if the trading strategy requires an initial investment up front - then ur profit must beat inflation. The strategy I suggest in the OP requires no initial capital and is therefore immune to inflation - yes the buying power of the profit is reduced but you still realize a free profit.
              – Don Slowik
              2 days ago












            • @DonSlowik: The point there is that if you start adding security to your mattress in order to lower the risk of just losing the money to theft, the thing you will be building is a bank. So for the same reasons banks aren't offering zero, you won't obtain zero.
              – Phil H
              2 days ago










            • @DonSlowik: The inflation comment was just to point out that real rates have been negative for some time, so any investment strategy which even comes out flat in real terms would beat deposits, even when rates are positive. People treat negative rates like some floor, when it's both nonexistant and arbitrary.
              – Phil H
              2 days ago
















            1. Yes, if the bank allows deposits at r = 0 while I can borrow at r < 0.
            – Don Slowik
            2 days ago




            1. Yes, if the bank allows deposits at r = 0 while I can borrow at r < 0.
            – Don Slowik
            2 days ago












            It seems to me that inflation does not enter the picture if you are using no arbitrage to set up an equivalent portfolio to price a derivative. It may enter the picture when you have identified an arbitrage opportunity, but only if the trading strategy requires an initial investment up front - then ur profit must beat inflation. The strategy I suggest in the OP requires no initial capital and is therefore immune to inflation - yes the buying power of the profit is reduced but you still realize a free profit.
            – Don Slowik
            2 days ago






            It seems to me that inflation does not enter the picture if you are using no arbitrage to set up an equivalent portfolio to price a derivative. It may enter the picture when you have identified an arbitrage opportunity, but only if the trading strategy requires an initial investment up front - then ur profit must beat inflation. The strategy I suggest in the OP requires no initial capital and is therefore immune to inflation - yes the buying power of the profit is reduced but you still realize a free profit.
            – Don Slowik
            2 days ago














            @DonSlowik: The point there is that if you start adding security to your mattress in order to lower the risk of just losing the money to theft, the thing you will be building is a bank. So for the same reasons banks aren't offering zero, you won't obtain zero.
            – Phil H
            2 days ago




            @DonSlowik: The point there is that if you start adding security to your mattress in order to lower the risk of just losing the money to theft, the thing you will be building is a bank. So for the same reasons banks aren't offering zero, you won't obtain zero.
            – Phil H
            2 days ago












            @DonSlowik: The inflation comment was just to point out that real rates have been negative for some time, so any investment strategy which even comes out flat in real terms would beat deposits, even when rates are positive. People treat negative rates like some floor, when it's both nonexistant and arbitrary.
            – Phil H
            2 days ago




            @DonSlowik: The inflation comment was just to point out that real rates have been negative for some time, so any investment strategy which even comes out flat in real terms would beat deposits, even when rates are positive. People treat negative rates like some floor, when it's both nonexistant and arbitrary.
            – Phil H
            2 days ago










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