Do Jews consider Jesus to be a magician?
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With black magic you can do amazing thing, including bewitching people senses for example to see thing, hear thing and feel certain sensation whether emotionally of physically. Often when a Prophet was sent to his people, they accused him of Magic; for example, Pharaoh and his chiefs accused Moses of being a Magician and the Egyptians followed them. And they treated the sign of God with arrogance and called Moses a liar. Well, Jesus raised the dead, healed those born blind and a leper. He even made birds out of clay and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles. Do Jews consider these miracles as black magic?
(Anyone that anserwer this question, could you not use in your argument that Christians consider Jesus to be God/divine and that is the reason for not accepting him. I do not consider Jesus to be God/divine.)
christianity sorcery-magic-kishuf
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up vote
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With black magic you can do amazing thing, including bewitching people senses for example to see thing, hear thing and feel certain sensation whether emotionally of physically. Often when a Prophet was sent to his people, they accused him of Magic; for example, Pharaoh and his chiefs accused Moses of being a Magician and the Egyptians followed them. And they treated the sign of God with arrogance and called Moses a liar. Well, Jesus raised the dead, healed those born blind and a leper. He even made birds out of clay and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles. Do Jews consider these miracles as black magic?
(Anyone that anserwer this question, could you not use in your argument that Christians consider Jesus to be God/divine and that is the reason for not accepting him. I do not consider Jesus to be God/divine.)
christianity sorcery-magic-kishuf
New contributor
6
Is there a (non-Christian) source that these seeming miracles happened? Perhaps they were made up later, and there's nothing to explain.
– Leopold
Nov 25 at 7:41
2
THere's something about Judaism everyone should know - it does not deal with Jesus at all. It's off-topic, as it has no practical implications whatsoever. Who he was (if anything) and what he did is not discussed or witnessed beyond the fact that he was sentenced for witchcraft and passed to Romans for execution.
– Al Berko
Nov 25 at 12:15
The notion of "magic" here is a bit confusing. There is an idea within Judaism (in its mystical branch) that one can effect "miracles" by the use of the name of God. There is a medieval story which explains that the miracles performed by Jesus were performed by secreting the divine name and exploiting it.
– rosends
Nov 25 at 13:34
Never mind the alleged actions recorded in the "gospels", but the birds made of clay story is from a much later infancy "gospel", regarded as spurious by most literary critics.
– Gary
Nov 26 at 0:22
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
With black magic you can do amazing thing, including bewitching people senses for example to see thing, hear thing and feel certain sensation whether emotionally of physically. Often when a Prophet was sent to his people, they accused him of Magic; for example, Pharaoh and his chiefs accused Moses of being a Magician and the Egyptians followed them. And they treated the sign of God with arrogance and called Moses a liar. Well, Jesus raised the dead, healed those born blind and a leper. He even made birds out of clay and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles. Do Jews consider these miracles as black magic?
(Anyone that anserwer this question, could you not use in your argument that Christians consider Jesus to be God/divine and that is the reason for not accepting him. I do not consider Jesus to be God/divine.)
christianity sorcery-magic-kishuf
New contributor
With black magic you can do amazing thing, including bewitching people senses for example to see thing, hear thing and feel certain sensation whether emotionally of physically. Often when a Prophet was sent to his people, they accused him of Magic; for example, Pharaoh and his chiefs accused Moses of being a Magician and the Egyptians followed them. And they treated the sign of God with arrogance and called Moses a liar. Well, Jesus raised the dead, healed those born blind and a leper. He even made birds out of clay and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles. Do Jews consider these miracles as black magic?
(Anyone that anserwer this question, could you not use in your argument that Christians consider Jesus to be God/divine and that is the reason for not accepting him. I do not consider Jesus to be God/divine.)
christianity sorcery-magic-kishuf
christianity sorcery-magic-kishuf
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New contributor
edited Nov 25 at 12:30
msh210♦
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47k1187274
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asked Nov 25 at 6:37
Asan Ramzan
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6
Is there a (non-Christian) source that these seeming miracles happened? Perhaps they were made up later, and there's nothing to explain.
– Leopold
Nov 25 at 7:41
2
THere's something about Judaism everyone should know - it does not deal with Jesus at all. It's off-topic, as it has no practical implications whatsoever. Who he was (if anything) and what he did is not discussed or witnessed beyond the fact that he was sentenced for witchcraft and passed to Romans for execution.
– Al Berko
Nov 25 at 12:15
The notion of "magic" here is a bit confusing. There is an idea within Judaism (in its mystical branch) that one can effect "miracles" by the use of the name of God. There is a medieval story which explains that the miracles performed by Jesus were performed by secreting the divine name and exploiting it.
– rosends
Nov 25 at 13:34
Never mind the alleged actions recorded in the "gospels", but the birds made of clay story is from a much later infancy "gospel", regarded as spurious by most literary critics.
– Gary
Nov 26 at 0:22
add a comment |
6
Is there a (non-Christian) source that these seeming miracles happened? Perhaps they were made up later, and there's nothing to explain.
– Leopold
Nov 25 at 7:41
2
THere's something about Judaism everyone should know - it does not deal with Jesus at all. It's off-topic, as it has no practical implications whatsoever. Who he was (if anything) and what he did is not discussed or witnessed beyond the fact that he was sentenced for witchcraft and passed to Romans for execution.
– Al Berko
Nov 25 at 12:15
The notion of "magic" here is a bit confusing. There is an idea within Judaism (in its mystical branch) that one can effect "miracles" by the use of the name of God. There is a medieval story which explains that the miracles performed by Jesus were performed by secreting the divine name and exploiting it.
– rosends
Nov 25 at 13:34
Never mind the alleged actions recorded in the "gospels", but the birds made of clay story is from a much later infancy "gospel", regarded as spurious by most literary critics.
– Gary
Nov 26 at 0:22
6
6
Is there a (non-Christian) source that these seeming miracles happened? Perhaps they were made up later, and there's nothing to explain.
– Leopold
Nov 25 at 7:41
Is there a (non-Christian) source that these seeming miracles happened? Perhaps they were made up later, and there's nothing to explain.
– Leopold
Nov 25 at 7:41
2
2
THere's something about Judaism everyone should know - it does not deal with Jesus at all. It's off-topic, as it has no practical implications whatsoever. Who he was (if anything) and what he did is not discussed or witnessed beyond the fact that he was sentenced for witchcraft and passed to Romans for execution.
– Al Berko
Nov 25 at 12:15
THere's something about Judaism everyone should know - it does not deal with Jesus at all. It's off-topic, as it has no practical implications whatsoever. Who he was (if anything) and what he did is not discussed or witnessed beyond the fact that he was sentenced for witchcraft and passed to Romans for execution.
– Al Berko
Nov 25 at 12:15
The notion of "magic" here is a bit confusing. There is an idea within Judaism (in its mystical branch) that one can effect "miracles" by the use of the name of God. There is a medieval story which explains that the miracles performed by Jesus were performed by secreting the divine name and exploiting it.
– rosends
Nov 25 at 13:34
The notion of "magic" here is a bit confusing. There is an idea within Judaism (in its mystical branch) that one can effect "miracles" by the use of the name of God. There is a medieval story which explains that the miracles performed by Jesus were performed by secreting the divine name and exploiting it.
– rosends
Nov 25 at 13:34
Never mind the alleged actions recorded in the "gospels", but the birds made of clay story is from a much later infancy "gospel", regarded as spurious by most literary critics.
– Gary
Nov 26 at 0:22
Never mind the alleged actions recorded in the "gospels", but the birds made of clay story is from a much later infancy "gospel", regarded as spurious by most literary critics.
– Gary
Nov 26 at 0:22
add a comment |
5 Answers
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The miracles Jesus preformed cannot be preformed by magic, it simply is not possible. You cannot raise the dead, heal those born blind or the leaper by magic. Jesus even made out of clay birds and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles.
You started this off with a huge swath of assumptions which can easily be disproven by the Torah.
Firstly, You can do all of these things with black magic, at least the Torah tells us it is possible and forbidden. The Torah specifically warns against a spectrum of dark arts, idolatries, and witchcrafts which all fall into this category.
Let no one be found among you who consigns his son or daughter to the fire, or who is an augur, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorcerer,one who casts spells, or one who consults ghosts or familiar spirits, or one who inquires of the dead. (Deut 18:11)
The Oral Torah explains that this also involves the raising of the dead (or Necromancy) Rashi specifically touched upon this.
Rashi: "or a charmer"
One who collects snakes, scorpions or other creatures to one place.
"a pithom sorcerer" - one who raises the [spirit of the] dead, and it speaks from his [the sorcerer’s] armpit.
"a yido’a sorcerer" - one who inserts a bone of the animal called yido’a into his mouth, and the bone speaks by means of sorcery.
"or a necromancer" As, for example, one who raises [the dead spirit] upon his membrum, or one who consults a skull. (Source)
You cited the story of Jesus molding a dove from clay and animating it to life. This is a known concept in the mystical traditions and it relates to the sages having discovered divine processes for animating life into clay. The Golem of Prague being one of the more famous stories of such a creature.
Jesus did nothing that distinguished himself from various other figures beyond presenting himself as a false fulfillment of the Mashiach prophecy and declaring himself God in flesh. Miracles are miracles and they all belong to Hashem regardless of whose hand is used. Dark magic is dark magic regardless of what you use it for and to who's benefit.
Beyond that point, we know for a fact that the writings of the New Testament were written hundreds of years after Jesus walked the earth.
The earliest manuscript that exists is dated 150-250 years after Jesus. This being from a book which was rehashed and edited so many times that King James organized a council to formulate a "finalized" and uniform version of the book in 1611. (Seriously, 1611)
The Council of Nicea (325 CE) (which canonized the NT) edited out various other writings and contradictory narratives and books in order to create a uniform text. So many different folks had no many different interpretations and themes of what exactly Jesus was and what he did that they had to have the church literally hand-pick what stayed and what went.
Jesus was claimed to have communed with an army of dragons in a deleted bible story. (The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18)
Jesus straight up murdered a child. (Infancy Gospel of Thomas 4:1)
Jesus convinced a snake which had bitten a child to suck out its poison. (First Gospel of Infancy 18:13-16)
So can you see my issue with the claim of "Look at the amazing things that Jesus did! Look at everyone who witnessed this! It has to mean something!"
But then you ignore the fact that if the original New Testament hadn't have been edited in the first place, You'd have a Jesus who was a dragon taming, snake speaking, child killing, whatever. We know nothing about Jesus beyond his name and beyond what the Rabbis spoke about him. The New Testament is a mishmash of conflicting stories and eyewitness accounts and themes which not couldn't give a clear picture of what Jesus was thematically but also blatantly misquoted the Torah to meet its own needs.
“For they did not continue in My covenant and I did not care[9] for
them…” [Hebrews 8:9]
“My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them…”
[Jeremiah 31:32]
(Source)
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about what counts as reliable witnesses, text alterations, and related topics has been moved to chat.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 25 at 22:46
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This question you have asked is not specific to Jesus. Why not ask the same question about other "miracle-workers" throughout time? Although flipping the question doesn't necessarily answer it, it does help us get somewhere. I ask you this: what do Christians think of the "miracles" of Mohammad? The answer is that since Christians reject the validity of the Qur'an, they also reject the validity of the miracles recorded within.
Since Judaism does not accept the New Testament as valid, the miracles within the New Testament are rejected as well. We don't have to say they were "black magic" because we believe they never happened.
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Avri’s answer is correct and much more detailed than mine. However, there is one opinion that does indeed say that Jesus could have been guilty of witchcraft.
Tosfos to Sanhedrin 37b DH miyom shecharav ask why the Gemara says that “even after the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed” the judgement of the four death penalties is still carried out by G-d through other means; the Sanhedrin voluntarily gave up the ability to administer the death penalty forty years earlier, so why does the Gemara day only once the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed? About halfway into the piece, they write:
וי״ל מ״מ כשהיו רואים צורך שעה היו חוזרים ללשכת הגזית כי ההיא עובדא
And there is to say that, nevertheless, when they would see that there was a need, they would return to the Lishkas HaGazis [to administer the death penalty], like in “that incident.”
Tosfos seem to be referring to a censored story on 43a; you can find this story in Oz v’Hadar, New Vilna, and Sefaria.
What’s the reason I bring up this Tosfos? Because from the fact that they insist that this story took place during those forty years - from 30 CE to 70 CE, give or take - indicates that the ישו mentioned therein may be Jesus according to them, who was killed in 34 CE.
The relevant quote from 43a is as follows:
בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו מ' יום ישו יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל כל מי שיודע לו זכות יבא וילמד עליו ולא מצאו לו זכות ותלאוהו בערב הפסח
On Erev Pesach, they hanged Yeshu. The announcer went before him 40 days [and announced]: “Yeshu is going to be stoned on that he committed witchcraft, that he enticed [to sin], and that he enticed [to idolatry]. Whoever knows a merit for him, come and say it for him.” They did not find a merit, and he was hanged on Erev Pesach.
I should emphasize: most opinions disagree with this reading of the story, saying emphatically that Yeshu as used here is not Jesus, on the grounds that it was after the Sanhedrin stopped administering the death penalty. With Tosfos opening the door, it’s certainly possible that the answer to your question is yes.
1
+1 for the second part of your answer which is a straightforward answer - but in my opinion the date 34 CE is totally irrelevant because the Talmud considers Jesus to be a student of Yehoshua ben Perachya. Who are these "most opinions" who say this doesn't refer to the Jesus? As far as I know, Jewish historiography (e.g. Seder Hadorot ג'תרע"א) assume that Jesus lived long before 34 CE. If you interpreted the ההוא עובדא of Tosafot correctly (and I can't suggest an alternative), that complicates things - either the Yeshu of 43a isn't Jesus, or Tosafot does somehow share your date of 34 CE
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:14
@ba 1 CE of the Gregorian calendar refers to the years since Jesus’ birth. 34 CE is the year in which he was crucified. The reason the date is important is because if it’s before 30 CE you don’t need Tosfos to validate this reading of the Gemara, and if it’s after 70 CE, Tosfos don’t help; by noting that it’s in 34 CE I make clear that it’s within the 40 years Tosfos refer to. I’d be curious to see the passage in Seder HaDoros, though, if you have a link to it. (Wikipedia gives a date of c. 30 CE.)
– DonielF
Nov 25 at 15:32
Jesus is usually considered to have been born some time before 1 CE so that his life can overlap with Herod. This is still a century later than the Jewish sources give. If Tosafot have a date of 30-70 CE for the crucifixion, and they are also referring to this case when they say ההוא עובדא, then you are correct. The question is how Tosafot, who didn't have access to Wikipedia, would have had such a date against all of the other sources.
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
The link to Seder Hadorot is here (I couldn't put it in either of my other comments because of the character limit), but Seder Hadorot is one example of many Jewish history books which give this date
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
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https://youtu.be/ZQgtCO6RJOM
This shiur by Rabbi Yehoshua Zitron says that there is not a single evidence that jesus ever existed. And for the miracles, not a witness was ever cited in the so called "New Testament"
This does not provide an answer to the question. To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post. - From Review
– mbloch
Nov 26 at 12:43
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There is a story about a person, who may or may not be THE Jesus*, who used to hang around the Temple. Somehow he got into the Holy of Holies while the Kohen Gadol was doing the Yom Kippur service. He may have been using a pulley operated maintenance box. He heard the Kohen say a powerful name of God. The trick is, only when the Kohen is in the inspired state inside the room does he know the word. Jesus carved it into his arm and took the word outside and did miracles with it. Thus J did use magic.
*Just like the third guy (Onkelos) in the story with Titus and Bilam may or may not be Jesus but probably is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkelos)
I'm never heard either of the stories you refer to. Can you elaborate on them? The first one doesn't sound Jewish, and I don't know what you're referring to with the second one.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 17:31
The second story is well known and is from Gittin. Looking for reference to the first one.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:44
Gittin says that the Onkelos story is about Jesus? If you can find a specific reference I'd like to see it for myself.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 18:55
It is deliberately unsaid but everyone knows who it is, including Christian censors.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:59
What is the source of this tale of j-sus sneaking into the Holy of Holies? How could that be possible?
– Ephraim77
2 days ago
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5 Answers
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The miracles Jesus preformed cannot be preformed by magic, it simply is not possible. You cannot raise the dead, heal those born blind or the leaper by magic. Jesus even made out of clay birds and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles.
You started this off with a huge swath of assumptions which can easily be disproven by the Torah.
Firstly, You can do all of these things with black magic, at least the Torah tells us it is possible and forbidden. The Torah specifically warns against a spectrum of dark arts, idolatries, and witchcrafts which all fall into this category.
Let no one be found among you who consigns his son or daughter to the fire, or who is an augur, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorcerer,one who casts spells, or one who consults ghosts or familiar spirits, or one who inquires of the dead. (Deut 18:11)
The Oral Torah explains that this also involves the raising of the dead (or Necromancy) Rashi specifically touched upon this.
Rashi: "or a charmer"
One who collects snakes, scorpions or other creatures to one place.
"a pithom sorcerer" - one who raises the [spirit of the] dead, and it speaks from his [the sorcerer’s] armpit.
"a yido’a sorcerer" - one who inserts a bone of the animal called yido’a into his mouth, and the bone speaks by means of sorcery.
"or a necromancer" As, for example, one who raises [the dead spirit] upon his membrum, or one who consults a skull. (Source)
You cited the story of Jesus molding a dove from clay and animating it to life. This is a known concept in the mystical traditions and it relates to the sages having discovered divine processes for animating life into clay. The Golem of Prague being one of the more famous stories of such a creature.
Jesus did nothing that distinguished himself from various other figures beyond presenting himself as a false fulfillment of the Mashiach prophecy and declaring himself God in flesh. Miracles are miracles and they all belong to Hashem regardless of whose hand is used. Dark magic is dark magic regardless of what you use it for and to who's benefit.
Beyond that point, we know for a fact that the writings of the New Testament were written hundreds of years after Jesus walked the earth.
The earliest manuscript that exists is dated 150-250 years after Jesus. This being from a book which was rehashed and edited so many times that King James organized a council to formulate a "finalized" and uniform version of the book in 1611. (Seriously, 1611)
The Council of Nicea (325 CE) (which canonized the NT) edited out various other writings and contradictory narratives and books in order to create a uniform text. So many different folks had no many different interpretations and themes of what exactly Jesus was and what he did that they had to have the church literally hand-pick what stayed and what went.
Jesus was claimed to have communed with an army of dragons in a deleted bible story. (The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18)
Jesus straight up murdered a child. (Infancy Gospel of Thomas 4:1)
Jesus convinced a snake which had bitten a child to suck out its poison. (First Gospel of Infancy 18:13-16)
So can you see my issue with the claim of "Look at the amazing things that Jesus did! Look at everyone who witnessed this! It has to mean something!"
But then you ignore the fact that if the original New Testament hadn't have been edited in the first place, You'd have a Jesus who was a dragon taming, snake speaking, child killing, whatever. We know nothing about Jesus beyond his name and beyond what the Rabbis spoke about him. The New Testament is a mishmash of conflicting stories and eyewitness accounts and themes which not couldn't give a clear picture of what Jesus was thematically but also blatantly misquoted the Torah to meet its own needs.
“For they did not continue in My covenant and I did not care[9] for
them…” [Hebrews 8:9]
“My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them…”
[Jeremiah 31:32]
(Source)
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about what counts as reliable witnesses, text alterations, and related topics has been moved to chat.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 25 at 22:46
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
The miracles Jesus preformed cannot be preformed by magic, it simply is not possible. You cannot raise the dead, heal those born blind or the leaper by magic. Jesus even made out of clay birds and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles.
You started this off with a huge swath of assumptions which can easily be disproven by the Torah.
Firstly, You can do all of these things with black magic, at least the Torah tells us it is possible and forbidden. The Torah specifically warns against a spectrum of dark arts, idolatries, and witchcrafts which all fall into this category.
Let no one be found among you who consigns his son or daughter to the fire, or who is an augur, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorcerer,one who casts spells, or one who consults ghosts or familiar spirits, or one who inquires of the dead. (Deut 18:11)
The Oral Torah explains that this also involves the raising of the dead (or Necromancy) Rashi specifically touched upon this.
Rashi: "or a charmer"
One who collects snakes, scorpions or other creatures to one place.
"a pithom sorcerer" - one who raises the [spirit of the] dead, and it speaks from his [the sorcerer’s] armpit.
"a yido’a sorcerer" - one who inserts a bone of the animal called yido’a into his mouth, and the bone speaks by means of sorcery.
"or a necromancer" As, for example, one who raises [the dead spirit] upon his membrum, or one who consults a skull. (Source)
You cited the story of Jesus molding a dove from clay and animating it to life. This is a known concept in the mystical traditions and it relates to the sages having discovered divine processes for animating life into clay. The Golem of Prague being one of the more famous stories of such a creature.
Jesus did nothing that distinguished himself from various other figures beyond presenting himself as a false fulfillment of the Mashiach prophecy and declaring himself God in flesh. Miracles are miracles and they all belong to Hashem regardless of whose hand is used. Dark magic is dark magic regardless of what you use it for and to who's benefit.
Beyond that point, we know for a fact that the writings of the New Testament were written hundreds of years after Jesus walked the earth.
The earliest manuscript that exists is dated 150-250 years after Jesus. This being from a book which was rehashed and edited so many times that King James organized a council to formulate a "finalized" and uniform version of the book in 1611. (Seriously, 1611)
The Council of Nicea (325 CE) (which canonized the NT) edited out various other writings and contradictory narratives and books in order to create a uniform text. So many different folks had no many different interpretations and themes of what exactly Jesus was and what he did that they had to have the church literally hand-pick what stayed and what went.
Jesus was claimed to have communed with an army of dragons in a deleted bible story. (The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18)
Jesus straight up murdered a child. (Infancy Gospel of Thomas 4:1)
Jesus convinced a snake which had bitten a child to suck out its poison. (First Gospel of Infancy 18:13-16)
So can you see my issue with the claim of "Look at the amazing things that Jesus did! Look at everyone who witnessed this! It has to mean something!"
But then you ignore the fact that if the original New Testament hadn't have been edited in the first place, You'd have a Jesus who was a dragon taming, snake speaking, child killing, whatever. We know nothing about Jesus beyond his name and beyond what the Rabbis spoke about him. The New Testament is a mishmash of conflicting stories and eyewitness accounts and themes which not couldn't give a clear picture of what Jesus was thematically but also blatantly misquoted the Torah to meet its own needs.
“For they did not continue in My covenant and I did not care[9] for
them…” [Hebrews 8:9]
“My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them…”
[Jeremiah 31:32]
(Source)
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about what counts as reliable witnesses, text alterations, and related topics has been moved to chat.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 25 at 22:46
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
The miracles Jesus preformed cannot be preformed by magic, it simply is not possible. You cannot raise the dead, heal those born blind or the leaper by magic. Jesus even made out of clay birds and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles.
You started this off with a huge swath of assumptions which can easily be disproven by the Torah.
Firstly, You can do all of these things with black magic, at least the Torah tells us it is possible and forbidden. The Torah specifically warns against a spectrum of dark arts, idolatries, and witchcrafts which all fall into this category.
Let no one be found among you who consigns his son or daughter to the fire, or who is an augur, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorcerer,one who casts spells, or one who consults ghosts or familiar spirits, or one who inquires of the dead. (Deut 18:11)
The Oral Torah explains that this also involves the raising of the dead (or Necromancy) Rashi specifically touched upon this.
Rashi: "or a charmer"
One who collects snakes, scorpions or other creatures to one place.
"a pithom sorcerer" - one who raises the [spirit of the] dead, and it speaks from his [the sorcerer’s] armpit.
"a yido’a sorcerer" - one who inserts a bone of the animal called yido’a into his mouth, and the bone speaks by means of sorcery.
"or a necromancer" As, for example, one who raises [the dead spirit] upon his membrum, or one who consults a skull. (Source)
You cited the story of Jesus molding a dove from clay and animating it to life. This is a known concept in the mystical traditions and it relates to the sages having discovered divine processes for animating life into clay. The Golem of Prague being one of the more famous stories of such a creature.
Jesus did nothing that distinguished himself from various other figures beyond presenting himself as a false fulfillment of the Mashiach prophecy and declaring himself God in flesh. Miracles are miracles and they all belong to Hashem regardless of whose hand is used. Dark magic is dark magic regardless of what you use it for and to who's benefit.
Beyond that point, we know for a fact that the writings of the New Testament were written hundreds of years after Jesus walked the earth.
The earliest manuscript that exists is dated 150-250 years after Jesus. This being from a book which was rehashed and edited so many times that King James organized a council to formulate a "finalized" and uniform version of the book in 1611. (Seriously, 1611)
The Council of Nicea (325 CE) (which canonized the NT) edited out various other writings and contradictory narratives and books in order to create a uniform text. So many different folks had no many different interpretations and themes of what exactly Jesus was and what he did that they had to have the church literally hand-pick what stayed and what went.
Jesus was claimed to have communed with an army of dragons in a deleted bible story. (The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18)
Jesus straight up murdered a child. (Infancy Gospel of Thomas 4:1)
Jesus convinced a snake which had bitten a child to suck out its poison. (First Gospel of Infancy 18:13-16)
So can you see my issue with the claim of "Look at the amazing things that Jesus did! Look at everyone who witnessed this! It has to mean something!"
But then you ignore the fact that if the original New Testament hadn't have been edited in the first place, You'd have a Jesus who was a dragon taming, snake speaking, child killing, whatever. We know nothing about Jesus beyond his name and beyond what the Rabbis spoke about him. The New Testament is a mishmash of conflicting stories and eyewitness accounts and themes which not couldn't give a clear picture of what Jesus was thematically but also blatantly misquoted the Torah to meet its own needs.
“For they did not continue in My covenant and I did not care[9] for
them…” [Hebrews 8:9]
“My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them…”
[Jeremiah 31:32]
(Source)
The miracles Jesus preformed cannot be preformed by magic, it simply is not possible. You cannot raise the dead, heal those born blind or the leaper by magic. Jesus even made out of clay birds and gave them life. And people witnessed these signs and miracles.
You started this off with a huge swath of assumptions which can easily be disproven by the Torah.
Firstly, You can do all of these things with black magic, at least the Torah tells us it is possible and forbidden. The Torah specifically warns against a spectrum of dark arts, idolatries, and witchcrafts which all fall into this category.
Let no one be found among you who consigns his son or daughter to the fire, or who is an augur, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorcerer,one who casts spells, or one who consults ghosts or familiar spirits, or one who inquires of the dead. (Deut 18:11)
The Oral Torah explains that this also involves the raising of the dead (or Necromancy) Rashi specifically touched upon this.
Rashi: "or a charmer"
One who collects snakes, scorpions or other creatures to one place.
"a pithom sorcerer" - one who raises the [spirit of the] dead, and it speaks from his [the sorcerer’s] armpit.
"a yido’a sorcerer" - one who inserts a bone of the animal called yido’a into his mouth, and the bone speaks by means of sorcery.
"or a necromancer" As, for example, one who raises [the dead spirit] upon his membrum, or one who consults a skull. (Source)
You cited the story of Jesus molding a dove from clay and animating it to life. This is a known concept in the mystical traditions and it relates to the sages having discovered divine processes for animating life into clay. The Golem of Prague being one of the more famous stories of such a creature.
Jesus did nothing that distinguished himself from various other figures beyond presenting himself as a false fulfillment of the Mashiach prophecy and declaring himself God in flesh. Miracles are miracles and they all belong to Hashem regardless of whose hand is used. Dark magic is dark magic regardless of what you use it for and to who's benefit.
Beyond that point, we know for a fact that the writings of the New Testament were written hundreds of years after Jesus walked the earth.
The earliest manuscript that exists is dated 150-250 years after Jesus. This being from a book which was rehashed and edited so many times that King James organized a council to formulate a "finalized" and uniform version of the book in 1611. (Seriously, 1611)
The Council of Nicea (325 CE) (which canonized the NT) edited out various other writings and contradictory narratives and books in order to create a uniform text. So many different folks had no many different interpretations and themes of what exactly Jesus was and what he did that they had to have the church literally hand-pick what stayed and what went.
Jesus was claimed to have communed with an army of dragons in a deleted bible story. (The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18)
Jesus straight up murdered a child. (Infancy Gospel of Thomas 4:1)
Jesus convinced a snake which had bitten a child to suck out its poison. (First Gospel of Infancy 18:13-16)
So can you see my issue with the claim of "Look at the amazing things that Jesus did! Look at everyone who witnessed this! It has to mean something!"
But then you ignore the fact that if the original New Testament hadn't have been edited in the first place, You'd have a Jesus who was a dragon taming, snake speaking, child killing, whatever. We know nothing about Jesus beyond his name and beyond what the Rabbis spoke about him. The New Testament is a mishmash of conflicting stories and eyewitness accounts and themes which not couldn't give a clear picture of what Jesus was thematically but also blatantly misquoted the Torah to meet its own needs.
“For they did not continue in My covenant and I did not care[9] for
them…” [Hebrews 8:9]
“My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them…”
[Jeremiah 31:32]
(Source)
edited Nov 25 at 21:28
Community♦
1
1
answered Nov 25 at 8:04
Avri
774112
774112
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about what counts as reliable witnesses, text alterations, and related topics has been moved to chat.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 25 at 22:46
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about what counts as reliable witnesses, text alterations, and related topics has been moved to chat.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 25 at 22:46
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about what counts as reliable witnesses, text alterations, and related topics has been moved to chat.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 25 at 22:46
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about what counts as reliable witnesses, text alterations, and related topics has been moved to chat.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 25 at 22:46
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
This question you have asked is not specific to Jesus. Why not ask the same question about other "miracle-workers" throughout time? Although flipping the question doesn't necessarily answer it, it does help us get somewhere. I ask you this: what do Christians think of the "miracles" of Mohammad? The answer is that since Christians reject the validity of the Qur'an, they also reject the validity of the miracles recorded within.
Since Judaism does not accept the New Testament as valid, the miracles within the New Testament are rejected as well. We don't have to say they were "black magic" because we believe they never happened.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
This question you have asked is not specific to Jesus. Why not ask the same question about other "miracle-workers" throughout time? Although flipping the question doesn't necessarily answer it, it does help us get somewhere. I ask you this: what do Christians think of the "miracles" of Mohammad? The answer is that since Christians reject the validity of the Qur'an, they also reject the validity of the miracles recorded within.
Since Judaism does not accept the New Testament as valid, the miracles within the New Testament are rejected as well. We don't have to say they were "black magic" because we believe they never happened.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
This question you have asked is not specific to Jesus. Why not ask the same question about other "miracle-workers" throughout time? Although flipping the question doesn't necessarily answer it, it does help us get somewhere. I ask you this: what do Christians think of the "miracles" of Mohammad? The answer is that since Christians reject the validity of the Qur'an, they also reject the validity of the miracles recorded within.
Since Judaism does not accept the New Testament as valid, the miracles within the New Testament are rejected as well. We don't have to say they were "black magic" because we believe they never happened.
This question you have asked is not specific to Jesus. Why not ask the same question about other "miracle-workers" throughout time? Although flipping the question doesn't necessarily answer it, it does help us get somewhere. I ask you this: what do Christians think of the "miracles" of Mohammad? The answer is that since Christians reject the validity of the Qur'an, they also reject the validity of the miracles recorded within.
Since Judaism does not accept the New Testament as valid, the miracles within the New Testament are rejected as well. We don't have to say they were "black magic" because we believe they never happened.
edited Nov 25 at 20:20
answered Nov 25 at 20:06
ezra
10.4k21351
10.4k21351
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Avri’s answer is correct and much more detailed than mine. However, there is one opinion that does indeed say that Jesus could have been guilty of witchcraft.
Tosfos to Sanhedrin 37b DH miyom shecharav ask why the Gemara says that “even after the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed” the judgement of the four death penalties is still carried out by G-d through other means; the Sanhedrin voluntarily gave up the ability to administer the death penalty forty years earlier, so why does the Gemara day only once the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed? About halfway into the piece, they write:
וי״ל מ״מ כשהיו רואים צורך שעה היו חוזרים ללשכת הגזית כי ההיא עובדא
And there is to say that, nevertheless, when they would see that there was a need, they would return to the Lishkas HaGazis [to administer the death penalty], like in “that incident.”
Tosfos seem to be referring to a censored story on 43a; you can find this story in Oz v’Hadar, New Vilna, and Sefaria.
What’s the reason I bring up this Tosfos? Because from the fact that they insist that this story took place during those forty years - from 30 CE to 70 CE, give or take - indicates that the ישו mentioned therein may be Jesus according to them, who was killed in 34 CE.
The relevant quote from 43a is as follows:
בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו מ' יום ישו יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל כל מי שיודע לו זכות יבא וילמד עליו ולא מצאו לו זכות ותלאוהו בערב הפסח
On Erev Pesach, they hanged Yeshu. The announcer went before him 40 days [and announced]: “Yeshu is going to be stoned on that he committed witchcraft, that he enticed [to sin], and that he enticed [to idolatry]. Whoever knows a merit for him, come and say it for him.” They did not find a merit, and he was hanged on Erev Pesach.
I should emphasize: most opinions disagree with this reading of the story, saying emphatically that Yeshu as used here is not Jesus, on the grounds that it was after the Sanhedrin stopped administering the death penalty. With Tosfos opening the door, it’s certainly possible that the answer to your question is yes.
1
+1 for the second part of your answer which is a straightforward answer - but in my opinion the date 34 CE is totally irrelevant because the Talmud considers Jesus to be a student of Yehoshua ben Perachya. Who are these "most opinions" who say this doesn't refer to the Jesus? As far as I know, Jewish historiography (e.g. Seder Hadorot ג'תרע"א) assume that Jesus lived long before 34 CE. If you interpreted the ההוא עובדא of Tosafot correctly (and I can't suggest an alternative), that complicates things - either the Yeshu of 43a isn't Jesus, or Tosafot does somehow share your date of 34 CE
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:14
@ba 1 CE of the Gregorian calendar refers to the years since Jesus’ birth. 34 CE is the year in which he was crucified. The reason the date is important is because if it’s before 30 CE you don’t need Tosfos to validate this reading of the Gemara, and if it’s after 70 CE, Tosfos don’t help; by noting that it’s in 34 CE I make clear that it’s within the 40 years Tosfos refer to. I’d be curious to see the passage in Seder HaDoros, though, if you have a link to it. (Wikipedia gives a date of c. 30 CE.)
– DonielF
Nov 25 at 15:32
Jesus is usually considered to have been born some time before 1 CE so that his life can overlap with Herod. This is still a century later than the Jewish sources give. If Tosafot have a date of 30-70 CE for the crucifixion, and they are also referring to this case when they say ההוא עובדא, then you are correct. The question is how Tosafot, who didn't have access to Wikipedia, would have had such a date against all of the other sources.
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
The link to Seder Hadorot is here (I couldn't put it in either of my other comments because of the character limit), but Seder Hadorot is one example of many Jewish history books which give this date
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Avri’s answer is correct and much more detailed than mine. However, there is one opinion that does indeed say that Jesus could have been guilty of witchcraft.
Tosfos to Sanhedrin 37b DH miyom shecharav ask why the Gemara says that “even after the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed” the judgement of the four death penalties is still carried out by G-d through other means; the Sanhedrin voluntarily gave up the ability to administer the death penalty forty years earlier, so why does the Gemara day only once the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed? About halfway into the piece, they write:
וי״ל מ״מ כשהיו רואים צורך שעה היו חוזרים ללשכת הגזית כי ההיא עובדא
And there is to say that, nevertheless, when they would see that there was a need, they would return to the Lishkas HaGazis [to administer the death penalty], like in “that incident.”
Tosfos seem to be referring to a censored story on 43a; you can find this story in Oz v’Hadar, New Vilna, and Sefaria.
What’s the reason I bring up this Tosfos? Because from the fact that they insist that this story took place during those forty years - from 30 CE to 70 CE, give or take - indicates that the ישו mentioned therein may be Jesus according to them, who was killed in 34 CE.
The relevant quote from 43a is as follows:
בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו מ' יום ישו יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל כל מי שיודע לו זכות יבא וילמד עליו ולא מצאו לו זכות ותלאוהו בערב הפסח
On Erev Pesach, they hanged Yeshu. The announcer went before him 40 days [and announced]: “Yeshu is going to be stoned on that he committed witchcraft, that he enticed [to sin], and that he enticed [to idolatry]. Whoever knows a merit for him, come and say it for him.” They did not find a merit, and he was hanged on Erev Pesach.
I should emphasize: most opinions disagree with this reading of the story, saying emphatically that Yeshu as used here is not Jesus, on the grounds that it was after the Sanhedrin stopped administering the death penalty. With Tosfos opening the door, it’s certainly possible that the answer to your question is yes.
1
+1 for the second part of your answer which is a straightforward answer - but in my opinion the date 34 CE is totally irrelevant because the Talmud considers Jesus to be a student of Yehoshua ben Perachya. Who are these "most opinions" who say this doesn't refer to the Jesus? As far as I know, Jewish historiography (e.g. Seder Hadorot ג'תרע"א) assume that Jesus lived long before 34 CE. If you interpreted the ההוא עובדא of Tosafot correctly (and I can't suggest an alternative), that complicates things - either the Yeshu of 43a isn't Jesus, or Tosafot does somehow share your date of 34 CE
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:14
@ba 1 CE of the Gregorian calendar refers to the years since Jesus’ birth. 34 CE is the year in which he was crucified. The reason the date is important is because if it’s before 30 CE you don’t need Tosfos to validate this reading of the Gemara, and if it’s after 70 CE, Tosfos don’t help; by noting that it’s in 34 CE I make clear that it’s within the 40 years Tosfos refer to. I’d be curious to see the passage in Seder HaDoros, though, if you have a link to it. (Wikipedia gives a date of c. 30 CE.)
– DonielF
Nov 25 at 15:32
Jesus is usually considered to have been born some time before 1 CE so that his life can overlap with Herod. This is still a century later than the Jewish sources give. If Tosafot have a date of 30-70 CE for the crucifixion, and they are also referring to this case when they say ההוא עובדא, then you are correct. The question is how Tosafot, who didn't have access to Wikipedia, would have had such a date against all of the other sources.
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
The link to Seder Hadorot is here (I couldn't put it in either of my other comments because of the character limit), but Seder Hadorot is one example of many Jewish history books which give this date
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Avri’s answer is correct and much more detailed than mine. However, there is one opinion that does indeed say that Jesus could have been guilty of witchcraft.
Tosfos to Sanhedrin 37b DH miyom shecharav ask why the Gemara says that “even after the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed” the judgement of the four death penalties is still carried out by G-d through other means; the Sanhedrin voluntarily gave up the ability to administer the death penalty forty years earlier, so why does the Gemara day only once the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed? About halfway into the piece, they write:
וי״ל מ״מ כשהיו רואים צורך שעה היו חוזרים ללשכת הגזית כי ההיא עובדא
And there is to say that, nevertheless, when they would see that there was a need, they would return to the Lishkas HaGazis [to administer the death penalty], like in “that incident.”
Tosfos seem to be referring to a censored story on 43a; you can find this story in Oz v’Hadar, New Vilna, and Sefaria.
What’s the reason I bring up this Tosfos? Because from the fact that they insist that this story took place during those forty years - from 30 CE to 70 CE, give or take - indicates that the ישו mentioned therein may be Jesus according to them, who was killed in 34 CE.
The relevant quote from 43a is as follows:
בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו מ' יום ישו יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל כל מי שיודע לו זכות יבא וילמד עליו ולא מצאו לו זכות ותלאוהו בערב הפסח
On Erev Pesach, they hanged Yeshu. The announcer went before him 40 days [and announced]: “Yeshu is going to be stoned on that he committed witchcraft, that he enticed [to sin], and that he enticed [to idolatry]. Whoever knows a merit for him, come and say it for him.” They did not find a merit, and he was hanged on Erev Pesach.
I should emphasize: most opinions disagree with this reading of the story, saying emphatically that Yeshu as used here is not Jesus, on the grounds that it was after the Sanhedrin stopped administering the death penalty. With Tosfos opening the door, it’s certainly possible that the answer to your question is yes.
Avri’s answer is correct and much more detailed than mine. However, there is one opinion that does indeed say that Jesus could have been guilty of witchcraft.
Tosfos to Sanhedrin 37b DH miyom shecharav ask why the Gemara says that “even after the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed” the judgement of the four death penalties is still carried out by G-d through other means; the Sanhedrin voluntarily gave up the ability to administer the death penalty forty years earlier, so why does the Gemara day only once the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed? About halfway into the piece, they write:
וי״ל מ״מ כשהיו רואים צורך שעה היו חוזרים ללשכת הגזית כי ההיא עובדא
And there is to say that, nevertheless, when they would see that there was a need, they would return to the Lishkas HaGazis [to administer the death penalty], like in “that incident.”
Tosfos seem to be referring to a censored story on 43a; you can find this story in Oz v’Hadar, New Vilna, and Sefaria.
What’s the reason I bring up this Tosfos? Because from the fact that they insist that this story took place during those forty years - from 30 CE to 70 CE, give or take - indicates that the ישו mentioned therein may be Jesus according to them, who was killed in 34 CE.
The relevant quote from 43a is as follows:
בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו מ' יום ישו יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל כל מי שיודע לו זכות יבא וילמד עליו ולא מצאו לו זכות ותלאוהו בערב הפסח
On Erev Pesach, they hanged Yeshu. The announcer went before him 40 days [and announced]: “Yeshu is going to be stoned on that he committed witchcraft, that he enticed [to sin], and that he enticed [to idolatry]. Whoever knows a merit for him, come and say it for him.” They did not find a merit, and he was hanged on Erev Pesach.
I should emphasize: most opinions disagree with this reading of the story, saying emphatically that Yeshu as used here is not Jesus, on the grounds that it was after the Sanhedrin stopped administering the death penalty. With Tosfos opening the door, it’s certainly possible that the answer to your question is yes.
answered Nov 25 at 13:18
DonielF
11.8k12061
11.8k12061
1
+1 for the second part of your answer which is a straightforward answer - but in my opinion the date 34 CE is totally irrelevant because the Talmud considers Jesus to be a student of Yehoshua ben Perachya. Who are these "most opinions" who say this doesn't refer to the Jesus? As far as I know, Jewish historiography (e.g. Seder Hadorot ג'תרע"א) assume that Jesus lived long before 34 CE. If you interpreted the ההוא עובדא of Tosafot correctly (and I can't suggest an alternative), that complicates things - either the Yeshu of 43a isn't Jesus, or Tosafot does somehow share your date of 34 CE
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:14
@ba 1 CE of the Gregorian calendar refers to the years since Jesus’ birth. 34 CE is the year in which he was crucified. The reason the date is important is because if it’s before 30 CE you don’t need Tosfos to validate this reading of the Gemara, and if it’s after 70 CE, Tosfos don’t help; by noting that it’s in 34 CE I make clear that it’s within the 40 years Tosfos refer to. I’d be curious to see the passage in Seder HaDoros, though, if you have a link to it. (Wikipedia gives a date of c. 30 CE.)
– DonielF
Nov 25 at 15:32
Jesus is usually considered to have been born some time before 1 CE so that his life can overlap with Herod. This is still a century later than the Jewish sources give. If Tosafot have a date of 30-70 CE for the crucifixion, and they are also referring to this case when they say ההוא עובדא, then you are correct. The question is how Tosafot, who didn't have access to Wikipedia, would have had such a date against all of the other sources.
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
The link to Seder Hadorot is here (I couldn't put it in either of my other comments because of the character limit), but Seder Hadorot is one example of many Jewish history books which give this date
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
add a comment |
1
+1 for the second part of your answer which is a straightforward answer - but in my opinion the date 34 CE is totally irrelevant because the Talmud considers Jesus to be a student of Yehoshua ben Perachya. Who are these "most opinions" who say this doesn't refer to the Jesus? As far as I know, Jewish historiography (e.g. Seder Hadorot ג'תרע"א) assume that Jesus lived long before 34 CE. If you interpreted the ההוא עובדא of Tosafot correctly (and I can't suggest an alternative), that complicates things - either the Yeshu of 43a isn't Jesus, or Tosafot does somehow share your date of 34 CE
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:14
@ba 1 CE of the Gregorian calendar refers to the years since Jesus’ birth. 34 CE is the year in which he was crucified. The reason the date is important is because if it’s before 30 CE you don’t need Tosfos to validate this reading of the Gemara, and if it’s after 70 CE, Tosfos don’t help; by noting that it’s in 34 CE I make clear that it’s within the 40 years Tosfos refer to. I’d be curious to see the passage in Seder HaDoros, though, if you have a link to it. (Wikipedia gives a date of c. 30 CE.)
– DonielF
Nov 25 at 15:32
Jesus is usually considered to have been born some time before 1 CE so that his life can overlap with Herod. This is still a century later than the Jewish sources give. If Tosafot have a date of 30-70 CE for the crucifixion, and they are also referring to this case when they say ההוא עובדא, then you are correct. The question is how Tosafot, who didn't have access to Wikipedia, would have had such a date against all of the other sources.
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
The link to Seder Hadorot is here (I couldn't put it in either of my other comments because of the character limit), but Seder Hadorot is one example of many Jewish history books which give this date
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
1
1
+1 for the second part of your answer which is a straightforward answer - but in my opinion the date 34 CE is totally irrelevant because the Talmud considers Jesus to be a student of Yehoshua ben Perachya. Who are these "most opinions" who say this doesn't refer to the Jesus? As far as I know, Jewish historiography (e.g. Seder Hadorot ג'תרע"א) assume that Jesus lived long before 34 CE. If you interpreted the ההוא עובדא of Tosafot correctly (and I can't suggest an alternative), that complicates things - either the Yeshu of 43a isn't Jesus, or Tosafot does somehow share your date of 34 CE
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:14
+1 for the second part of your answer which is a straightforward answer - but in my opinion the date 34 CE is totally irrelevant because the Talmud considers Jesus to be a student of Yehoshua ben Perachya. Who are these "most opinions" who say this doesn't refer to the Jesus? As far as I know, Jewish historiography (e.g. Seder Hadorot ג'תרע"א) assume that Jesus lived long before 34 CE. If you interpreted the ההוא עובדא of Tosafot correctly (and I can't suggest an alternative), that complicates things - either the Yeshu of 43a isn't Jesus, or Tosafot does somehow share your date of 34 CE
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:14
@ba 1 CE of the Gregorian calendar refers to the years since Jesus’ birth. 34 CE is the year in which he was crucified. The reason the date is important is because if it’s before 30 CE you don’t need Tosfos to validate this reading of the Gemara, and if it’s after 70 CE, Tosfos don’t help; by noting that it’s in 34 CE I make clear that it’s within the 40 years Tosfos refer to. I’d be curious to see the passage in Seder HaDoros, though, if you have a link to it. (Wikipedia gives a date of c. 30 CE.)
– DonielF
Nov 25 at 15:32
@ba 1 CE of the Gregorian calendar refers to the years since Jesus’ birth. 34 CE is the year in which he was crucified. The reason the date is important is because if it’s before 30 CE you don’t need Tosfos to validate this reading of the Gemara, and if it’s after 70 CE, Tosfos don’t help; by noting that it’s in 34 CE I make clear that it’s within the 40 years Tosfos refer to. I’d be curious to see the passage in Seder HaDoros, though, if you have a link to it. (Wikipedia gives a date of c. 30 CE.)
– DonielF
Nov 25 at 15:32
Jesus is usually considered to have been born some time before 1 CE so that his life can overlap with Herod. This is still a century later than the Jewish sources give. If Tosafot have a date of 30-70 CE for the crucifixion, and they are also referring to this case when they say ההוא עובדא, then you are correct. The question is how Tosafot, who didn't have access to Wikipedia, would have had such a date against all of the other sources.
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
Jesus is usually considered to have been born some time before 1 CE so that his life can overlap with Herod. This is still a century later than the Jewish sources give. If Tosafot have a date of 30-70 CE for the crucifixion, and they are also referring to this case when they say ההוא עובדא, then you are correct. The question is how Tosafot, who didn't have access to Wikipedia, would have had such a date against all of the other sources.
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
The link to Seder Hadorot is here (I couldn't put it in either of my other comments because of the character limit), but Seder Hadorot is one example of many Jewish history books which give this date
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
The link to Seder Hadorot is here (I couldn't put it in either of my other comments because of the character limit), but Seder Hadorot is one example of many Jewish history books which give this date
– b a
Nov 25 at 15:46
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https://youtu.be/ZQgtCO6RJOM
This shiur by Rabbi Yehoshua Zitron says that there is not a single evidence that jesus ever existed. And for the miracles, not a witness was ever cited in the so called "New Testament"
This does not provide an answer to the question. To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post. - From Review
– mbloch
Nov 26 at 12:43
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https://youtu.be/ZQgtCO6RJOM
This shiur by Rabbi Yehoshua Zitron says that there is not a single evidence that jesus ever existed. And for the miracles, not a witness was ever cited in the so called "New Testament"
This does not provide an answer to the question. To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post. - From Review
– mbloch
Nov 26 at 12:43
add a comment |
up vote
-1
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up vote
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https://youtu.be/ZQgtCO6RJOM
This shiur by Rabbi Yehoshua Zitron says that there is not a single evidence that jesus ever existed. And for the miracles, not a witness was ever cited in the so called "New Testament"
https://youtu.be/ZQgtCO6RJOM
This shiur by Rabbi Yehoshua Zitron says that there is not a single evidence that jesus ever existed. And for the miracles, not a witness was ever cited in the so called "New Testament"
answered Nov 26 at 8:00
Rh Haokip
1167
1167
This does not provide an answer to the question. To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post. - From Review
– mbloch
Nov 26 at 12:43
add a comment |
This does not provide an answer to the question. To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post. - From Review
– mbloch
Nov 26 at 12:43
This does not provide an answer to the question. To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post. - From Review
– mbloch
Nov 26 at 12:43
This does not provide an answer to the question. To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post. - From Review
– mbloch
Nov 26 at 12:43
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There is a story about a person, who may or may not be THE Jesus*, who used to hang around the Temple. Somehow he got into the Holy of Holies while the Kohen Gadol was doing the Yom Kippur service. He may have been using a pulley operated maintenance box. He heard the Kohen say a powerful name of God. The trick is, only when the Kohen is in the inspired state inside the room does he know the word. Jesus carved it into his arm and took the word outside and did miracles with it. Thus J did use magic.
*Just like the third guy (Onkelos) in the story with Titus and Bilam may or may not be Jesus but probably is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkelos)
I'm never heard either of the stories you refer to. Can you elaborate on them? The first one doesn't sound Jewish, and I don't know what you're referring to with the second one.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 17:31
The second story is well known and is from Gittin. Looking for reference to the first one.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:44
Gittin says that the Onkelos story is about Jesus? If you can find a specific reference I'd like to see it for myself.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 18:55
It is deliberately unsaid but everyone knows who it is, including Christian censors.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:59
What is the source of this tale of j-sus sneaking into the Holy of Holies? How could that be possible?
– Ephraim77
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
-1
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There is a story about a person, who may or may not be THE Jesus*, who used to hang around the Temple. Somehow he got into the Holy of Holies while the Kohen Gadol was doing the Yom Kippur service. He may have been using a pulley operated maintenance box. He heard the Kohen say a powerful name of God. The trick is, only when the Kohen is in the inspired state inside the room does he know the word. Jesus carved it into his arm and took the word outside and did miracles with it. Thus J did use magic.
*Just like the third guy (Onkelos) in the story with Titus and Bilam may or may not be Jesus but probably is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkelos)
I'm never heard either of the stories you refer to. Can you elaborate on them? The first one doesn't sound Jewish, and I don't know what you're referring to with the second one.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 17:31
The second story is well known and is from Gittin. Looking for reference to the first one.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:44
Gittin says that the Onkelos story is about Jesus? If you can find a specific reference I'd like to see it for myself.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 18:55
It is deliberately unsaid but everyone knows who it is, including Christian censors.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:59
What is the source of this tale of j-sus sneaking into the Holy of Holies? How could that be possible?
– Ephraim77
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
There is a story about a person, who may or may not be THE Jesus*, who used to hang around the Temple. Somehow he got into the Holy of Holies while the Kohen Gadol was doing the Yom Kippur service. He may have been using a pulley operated maintenance box. He heard the Kohen say a powerful name of God. The trick is, only when the Kohen is in the inspired state inside the room does he know the word. Jesus carved it into his arm and took the word outside and did miracles with it. Thus J did use magic.
*Just like the third guy (Onkelos) in the story with Titus and Bilam may or may not be Jesus but probably is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkelos)
There is a story about a person, who may or may not be THE Jesus*, who used to hang around the Temple. Somehow he got into the Holy of Holies while the Kohen Gadol was doing the Yom Kippur service. He may have been using a pulley operated maintenance box. He heard the Kohen say a powerful name of God. The trick is, only when the Kohen is in the inspired state inside the room does he know the word. Jesus carved it into his arm and took the word outside and did miracles with it. Thus J did use magic.
*Just like the third guy (Onkelos) in the story with Titus and Bilam may or may not be Jesus but probably is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkelos)
edited Nov 26 at 18:43
answered Nov 26 at 13:09
Clint Eastwood
3,529834
3,529834
I'm never heard either of the stories you refer to. Can you elaborate on them? The first one doesn't sound Jewish, and I don't know what you're referring to with the second one.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 17:31
The second story is well known and is from Gittin. Looking for reference to the first one.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:44
Gittin says that the Onkelos story is about Jesus? If you can find a specific reference I'd like to see it for myself.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 18:55
It is deliberately unsaid but everyone knows who it is, including Christian censors.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:59
What is the source of this tale of j-sus sneaking into the Holy of Holies? How could that be possible?
– Ephraim77
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
I'm never heard either of the stories you refer to. Can you elaborate on them? The first one doesn't sound Jewish, and I don't know what you're referring to with the second one.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 17:31
The second story is well known and is from Gittin. Looking for reference to the first one.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:44
Gittin says that the Onkelos story is about Jesus? If you can find a specific reference I'd like to see it for myself.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 18:55
It is deliberately unsaid but everyone knows who it is, including Christian censors.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:59
What is the source of this tale of j-sus sneaking into the Holy of Holies? How could that be possible?
– Ephraim77
2 days ago
I'm never heard either of the stories you refer to. Can you elaborate on them? The first one doesn't sound Jewish, and I don't know what you're referring to with the second one.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 17:31
I'm never heard either of the stories you refer to. Can you elaborate on them? The first one doesn't sound Jewish, and I don't know what you're referring to with the second one.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 17:31
The second story is well known and is from Gittin. Looking for reference to the first one.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:44
The second story is well known and is from Gittin. Looking for reference to the first one.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:44
Gittin says that the Onkelos story is about Jesus? If you can find a specific reference I'd like to see it for myself.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 18:55
Gittin says that the Onkelos story is about Jesus? If you can find a specific reference I'd like to see it for myself.
– Monica Cellio♦
Nov 26 at 18:55
It is deliberately unsaid but everyone knows who it is, including Christian censors.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:59
It is deliberately unsaid but everyone knows who it is, including Christian censors.
– Clint Eastwood
Nov 26 at 18:59
What is the source of this tale of j-sus sneaking into the Holy of Holies? How could that be possible?
– Ephraim77
2 days ago
What is the source of this tale of j-sus sneaking into the Holy of Holies? How could that be possible?
– Ephraim77
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
protected by Isaac Moses♦ Nov 26 at 3:17
Thank you for your interest in this question.
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Is there a (non-Christian) source that these seeming miracles happened? Perhaps they were made up later, and there's nothing to explain.
– Leopold
Nov 25 at 7:41
2
THere's something about Judaism everyone should know - it does not deal with Jesus at all. It's off-topic, as it has no practical implications whatsoever. Who he was (if anything) and what he did is not discussed or witnessed beyond the fact that he was sentenced for witchcraft and passed to Romans for execution.
– Al Berko
Nov 25 at 12:15
The notion of "magic" here is a bit confusing. There is an idea within Judaism (in its mystical branch) that one can effect "miracles" by the use of the name of God. There is a medieval story which explains that the miracles performed by Jesus were performed by secreting the divine name and exploiting it.
– rosends
Nov 25 at 13:34
Never mind the alleged actions recorded in the "gospels", but the birds made of clay story is from a much later infancy "gospel", regarded as spurious by most literary critics.
– Gary
Nov 26 at 0:22