Proof that if f(a)0 f and is continuous on [a,b] then f changes sign at some c in (a,b) Part 2
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
I asked a question similar to this previously but I realized that what I was trying to prove was false. Then I changed the thing I was trying to prove but it was still false. I also accepted an answer that proved my theorem in a special case but that was not true in general. I am trying to prove it again and people stopped commenting on my previous question because I accepted the answer.
So I am asking a new question.
The correct version of the theorem I want to prove is "Suppose that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$, $f(a)<0$, and $f(b)>0$. Then $exists cin (a,b), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$.
I tried to prove this by contradiction. I assumed that $forall cin(a,b), forall delta>0, exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)>0$ or $exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)<0$.
By Strong IVT I know that $exists a_1in (a,b), forall xin (a,a_1), f(x)<0$.
Also by Strong IVT I know that $exists b_1in (a,b), forall xin (b_1,b), f(x)>0$.
I see that $f(a_1)=0$ and $f(b_1)=0$.
I also know to prove that $a_1$ satisfies what I want if $a_1$ is an isolated zero.
Similarly, if $b_1$, I know to finish the proof (in both cases I don't need a proof by contradiction).
Then there is the case where neither $a_1$ or $b_1$ are isolated. Everything I write past this is speculation. Because $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$ and $[a,b]$ is compact, I know that $f$ is uniformly continuous on $[a,b]$. Which means that I know that $varepsilon>0$, $exists delta>0$, $forall x,yin[a,b]$, $|x-y|<delta Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<varepsilon$.
What I tried to do is "walk" from $a_1$ to $b_1$ to show that for some point $x$ in $(b_1,b) f(x)<0$. I attempted this with the following (insufficient) process.
I chose $delta_n$ such that $forall xin[a,b], |x-y|<delta_n Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<-f(a)cdot2^{-n}$. Then I defined a sequence $x_n$ such that $x_1=a_1$ and $x_n=x_{n-1}+text{min}left{frac{1}{2}delta_n,(b-a_1)2^{-(n+1)}right}$. The first term in the minimum ensures that $f(x_n)ge -f(a)cdot2^{-n}>0$ while the second term prevents $x_n$ from leaving the interval $[a,b]$.
The problem I see with this attempt is that if $x_n$ does not enter $(a,b)$ for a finite $n$ (which would occur if $delta_n$ were too small) then I wouldn't get a contradiction.
Perhaps the correct approach is to use the fact that I am considering the case where $a_1$ and $b_1$ are not isolated. If someone can show me how to prove that $f(x) = |x| sin(1/x)$ if $xne 0$ and $f(0)=0$ satisfies "$exists cin (-1,1), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$ or give me a hint for such a proof then I think I can apply similar reasoning to the general case.
I know that it is possible to show that this holds by finding a $c$ where $f(c)=0$ and $f'(c)>0$, but I want to prove this without assuming that my function is differentiable.
real-analysis continuity roots uniform-continuity
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
I asked a question similar to this previously but I realized that what I was trying to prove was false. Then I changed the thing I was trying to prove but it was still false. I also accepted an answer that proved my theorem in a special case but that was not true in general. I am trying to prove it again and people stopped commenting on my previous question because I accepted the answer.
So I am asking a new question.
The correct version of the theorem I want to prove is "Suppose that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$, $f(a)<0$, and $f(b)>0$. Then $exists cin (a,b), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$.
I tried to prove this by contradiction. I assumed that $forall cin(a,b), forall delta>0, exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)>0$ or $exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)<0$.
By Strong IVT I know that $exists a_1in (a,b), forall xin (a,a_1), f(x)<0$.
Also by Strong IVT I know that $exists b_1in (a,b), forall xin (b_1,b), f(x)>0$.
I see that $f(a_1)=0$ and $f(b_1)=0$.
I also know to prove that $a_1$ satisfies what I want if $a_1$ is an isolated zero.
Similarly, if $b_1$, I know to finish the proof (in both cases I don't need a proof by contradiction).
Then there is the case where neither $a_1$ or $b_1$ are isolated. Everything I write past this is speculation. Because $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$ and $[a,b]$ is compact, I know that $f$ is uniformly continuous on $[a,b]$. Which means that I know that $varepsilon>0$, $exists delta>0$, $forall x,yin[a,b]$, $|x-y|<delta Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<varepsilon$.
What I tried to do is "walk" from $a_1$ to $b_1$ to show that for some point $x$ in $(b_1,b) f(x)<0$. I attempted this with the following (insufficient) process.
I chose $delta_n$ such that $forall xin[a,b], |x-y|<delta_n Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<-f(a)cdot2^{-n}$. Then I defined a sequence $x_n$ such that $x_1=a_1$ and $x_n=x_{n-1}+text{min}left{frac{1}{2}delta_n,(b-a_1)2^{-(n+1)}right}$. The first term in the minimum ensures that $f(x_n)ge -f(a)cdot2^{-n}>0$ while the second term prevents $x_n$ from leaving the interval $[a,b]$.
The problem I see with this attempt is that if $x_n$ does not enter $(a,b)$ for a finite $n$ (which would occur if $delta_n$ were too small) then I wouldn't get a contradiction.
Perhaps the correct approach is to use the fact that I am considering the case where $a_1$ and $b_1$ are not isolated. If someone can show me how to prove that $f(x) = |x| sin(1/x)$ if $xne 0$ and $f(0)=0$ satisfies "$exists cin (-1,1), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$ or give me a hint for such a proof then I think I can apply similar reasoning to the general case.
I know that it is possible to show that this holds by finding a $c$ where $f(c)=0$ and $f'(c)>0$, but I want to prove this without assuming that my function is differentiable.
real-analysis continuity roots uniform-continuity
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
I asked a question similar to this previously but I realized that what I was trying to prove was false. Then I changed the thing I was trying to prove but it was still false. I also accepted an answer that proved my theorem in a special case but that was not true in general. I am trying to prove it again and people stopped commenting on my previous question because I accepted the answer.
So I am asking a new question.
The correct version of the theorem I want to prove is "Suppose that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$, $f(a)<0$, and $f(b)>0$. Then $exists cin (a,b), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$.
I tried to prove this by contradiction. I assumed that $forall cin(a,b), forall delta>0, exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)>0$ or $exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)<0$.
By Strong IVT I know that $exists a_1in (a,b), forall xin (a,a_1), f(x)<0$.
Also by Strong IVT I know that $exists b_1in (a,b), forall xin (b_1,b), f(x)>0$.
I see that $f(a_1)=0$ and $f(b_1)=0$.
I also know to prove that $a_1$ satisfies what I want if $a_1$ is an isolated zero.
Similarly, if $b_1$, I know to finish the proof (in both cases I don't need a proof by contradiction).
Then there is the case where neither $a_1$ or $b_1$ are isolated. Everything I write past this is speculation. Because $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$ and $[a,b]$ is compact, I know that $f$ is uniformly continuous on $[a,b]$. Which means that I know that $varepsilon>0$, $exists delta>0$, $forall x,yin[a,b]$, $|x-y|<delta Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<varepsilon$.
What I tried to do is "walk" from $a_1$ to $b_1$ to show that for some point $x$ in $(b_1,b) f(x)<0$. I attempted this with the following (insufficient) process.
I chose $delta_n$ such that $forall xin[a,b], |x-y|<delta_n Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<-f(a)cdot2^{-n}$. Then I defined a sequence $x_n$ such that $x_1=a_1$ and $x_n=x_{n-1}+text{min}left{frac{1}{2}delta_n,(b-a_1)2^{-(n+1)}right}$. The first term in the minimum ensures that $f(x_n)ge -f(a)cdot2^{-n}>0$ while the second term prevents $x_n$ from leaving the interval $[a,b]$.
The problem I see with this attempt is that if $x_n$ does not enter $(a,b)$ for a finite $n$ (which would occur if $delta_n$ were too small) then I wouldn't get a contradiction.
Perhaps the correct approach is to use the fact that I am considering the case where $a_1$ and $b_1$ are not isolated. If someone can show me how to prove that $f(x) = |x| sin(1/x)$ if $xne 0$ and $f(0)=0$ satisfies "$exists cin (-1,1), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$ or give me a hint for such a proof then I think I can apply similar reasoning to the general case.
I know that it is possible to show that this holds by finding a $c$ where $f(c)=0$ and $f'(c)>0$, but I want to prove this without assuming that my function is differentiable.
real-analysis continuity roots uniform-continuity
I asked a question similar to this previously but I realized that what I was trying to prove was false. Then I changed the thing I was trying to prove but it was still false. I also accepted an answer that proved my theorem in a special case but that was not true in general. I am trying to prove it again and people stopped commenting on my previous question because I accepted the answer.
So I am asking a new question.
The correct version of the theorem I want to prove is "Suppose that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$, $f(a)<0$, and $f(b)>0$. Then $exists cin (a,b), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$.
I tried to prove this by contradiction. I assumed that $forall cin(a,b), forall delta>0, exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)>0$ or $exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)<0$.
By Strong IVT I know that $exists a_1in (a,b), forall xin (a,a_1), f(x)<0$.
Also by Strong IVT I know that $exists b_1in (a,b), forall xin (b_1,b), f(x)>0$.
I see that $f(a_1)=0$ and $f(b_1)=0$.
I also know to prove that $a_1$ satisfies what I want if $a_1$ is an isolated zero.
Similarly, if $b_1$, I know to finish the proof (in both cases I don't need a proof by contradiction).
Then there is the case where neither $a_1$ or $b_1$ are isolated. Everything I write past this is speculation. Because $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$ and $[a,b]$ is compact, I know that $f$ is uniformly continuous on $[a,b]$. Which means that I know that $varepsilon>0$, $exists delta>0$, $forall x,yin[a,b]$, $|x-y|<delta Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<varepsilon$.
What I tried to do is "walk" from $a_1$ to $b_1$ to show that for some point $x$ in $(b_1,b) f(x)<0$. I attempted this with the following (insufficient) process.
I chose $delta_n$ such that $forall xin[a,b], |x-y|<delta_n Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<-f(a)cdot2^{-n}$. Then I defined a sequence $x_n$ such that $x_1=a_1$ and $x_n=x_{n-1}+text{min}left{frac{1}{2}delta_n,(b-a_1)2^{-(n+1)}right}$. The first term in the minimum ensures that $f(x_n)ge -f(a)cdot2^{-n}>0$ while the second term prevents $x_n$ from leaving the interval $[a,b]$.
The problem I see with this attempt is that if $x_n$ does not enter $(a,b)$ for a finite $n$ (which would occur if $delta_n$ were too small) then I wouldn't get a contradiction.
Perhaps the correct approach is to use the fact that I am considering the case where $a_1$ and $b_1$ are not isolated. If someone can show me how to prove that $f(x) = |x| sin(1/x)$ if $xne 0$ and $f(0)=0$ satisfies "$exists cin (-1,1), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$ or give me a hint for such a proof then I think I can apply similar reasoning to the general case.
I know that it is possible to show that this holds by finding a $c$ where $f(c)=0$ and $f'(c)>0$, but I want to prove this without assuming that my function is differentiable.
real-analysis continuity roots uniform-continuity
real-analysis continuity roots uniform-continuity
asked Nov 16 at 2:17
Andrew Murdza
254
254
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:
Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set
The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.
Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
– bitesizebo
Nov 16 at 2:44
Oh the construction there is clever :)
– jgon
Nov 16 at 2:47
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:
Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set
The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.
Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
– bitesizebo
Nov 16 at 2:44
Oh the construction there is clever :)
– jgon
Nov 16 at 2:47
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:
Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set
The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.
Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
– bitesizebo
Nov 16 at 2:44
Oh the construction there is clever :)
– jgon
Nov 16 at 2:47
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:
Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set
The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.
Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:
Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set
The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.
edited Nov 16 at 3:00
answered Nov 16 at 2:32
bitesizebo
1,39618
1,39618
Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
– bitesizebo
Nov 16 at 2:44
Oh the construction there is clever :)
– jgon
Nov 16 at 2:47
add a comment |
Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
– bitesizebo
Nov 16 at 2:44
Oh the construction there is clever :)
– jgon
Nov 16 at 2:47
Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
– bitesizebo
Nov 16 at 2:44
Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
– bitesizebo
Nov 16 at 2:44
Oh the construction there is clever :)
– jgon
Nov 16 at 2:47
Oh the construction there is clever :)
– jgon
Nov 16 at 2:47
add a comment |
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3000627%2fproof-that-if-fa0-and-fb0-f-and-is-continuous-on-a-b-then-f-changes-sign%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown