Proof that if f(a)0 f and is continuous on [a,b] then f changes sign at some c in (a,b) Part 2











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I asked a question similar to this previously but I realized that what I was trying to prove was false. Then I changed the thing I was trying to prove but it was still false. I also accepted an answer that proved my theorem in a special case but that was not true in general. I am trying to prove it again and people stopped commenting on my previous question because I accepted the answer.



So I am asking a new question.



The correct version of the theorem I want to prove is "Suppose that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$, $f(a)<0$, and $f(b)>0$. Then $exists cin (a,b), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$.



I tried to prove this by contradiction. I assumed that $forall cin(a,b), forall delta>0, exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)>0$ or $exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)<0$.



By Strong IVT I know that $exists a_1in (a,b), forall xin (a,a_1), f(x)<0$.
Also by Strong IVT I know that $exists b_1in (a,b), forall xin (b_1,b), f(x)>0$.
I see that $f(a_1)=0$ and $f(b_1)=0$.



I also know to prove that $a_1$ satisfies what I want if $a_1$ is an isolated zero.



Similarly, if $b_1$, I know to finish the proof (in both cases I don't need a proof by contradiction).



Then there is the case where neither $a_1$ or $b_1$ are isolated. Everything I write past this is speculation. Because $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$ and $[a,b]$ is compact, I know that $f$ is uniformly continuous on $[a,b]$. Which means that I know that $varepsilon>0$, $exists delta>0$, $forall x,yin[a,b]$, $|x-y|<delta Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<varepsilon$.



What I tried to do is "walk" from $a_1$ to $b_1$ to show that for some point $x$ in $(b_1,b) f(x)<0$. I attempted this with the following (insufficient) process.
I chose $delta_n$ such that $forall xin[a,b], |x-y|<delta_n Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<-f(a)cdot2^{-n}$. Then I defined a sequence $x_n$ such that $x_1=a_1$ and $x_n=x_{n-1}+text{min}left{frac{1}{2}delta_n,(b-a_1)2^{-(n+1)}right}$. The first term in the minimum ensures that $f(x_n)ge -f(a)cdot2^{-n}>0$ while the second term prevents $x_n$ from leaving the interval $[a,b]$.
The problem I see with this attempt is that if $x_n$ does not enter $(a,b)$ for a finite $n$ (which would occur if $delta_n$ were too small) then I wouldn't get a contradiction.



Perhaps the correct approach is to use the fact that I am considering the case where $a_1$ and $b_1$ are not isolated. If someone can show me how to prove that $f(x) = |x| sin(1/x)$ if $xne 0$ and $f(0)=0$ satisfies "$exists cin (-1,1), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$ or give me a hint for such a proof then I think I can apply similar reasoning to the general case.



I know that it is possible to show that this holds by finding a $c$ where $f(c)=0$ and $f'(c)>0$, but I want to prove this without assuming that my function is differentiable.










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    up vote
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    I asked a question similar to this previously but I realized that what I was trying to prove was false. Then I changed the thing I was trying to prove but it was still false. I also accepted an answer that proved my theorem in a special case but that was not true in general. I am trying to prove it again and people stopped commenting on my previous question because I accepted the answer.



    So I am asking a new question.



    The correct version of the theorem I want to prove is "Suppose that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$, $f(a)<0$, and $f(b)>0$. Then $exists cin (a,b), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$.



    I tried to prove this by contradiction. I assumed that $forall cin(a,b), forall delta>0, exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)>0$ or $exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)<0$.



    By Strong IVT I know that $exists a_1in (a,b), forall xin (a,a_1), f(x)<0$.
    Also by Strong IVT I know that $exists b_1in (a,b), forall xin (b_1,b), f(x)>0$.
    I see that $f(a_1)=0$ and $f(b_1)=0$.



    I also know to prove that $a_1$ satisfies what I want if $a_1$ is an isolated zero.



    Similarly, if $b_1$, I know to finish the proof (in both cases I don't need a proof by contradiction).



    Then there is the case where neither $a_1$ or $b_1$ are isolated. Everything I write past this is speculation. Because $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$ and $[a,b]$ is compact, I know that $f$ is uniformly continuous on $[a,b]$. Which means that I know that $varepsilon>0$, $exists delta>0$, $forall x,yin[a,b]$, $|x-y|<delta Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<varepsilon$.



    What I tried to do is "walk" from $a_1$ to $b_1$ to show that for some point $x$ in $(b_1,b) f(x)<0$. I attempted this with the following (insufficient) process.
    I chose $delta_n$ such that $forall xin[a,b], |x-y|<delta_n Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<-f(a)cdot2^{-n}$. Then I defined a sequence $x_n$ such that $x_1=a_1$ and $x_n=x_{n-1}+text{min}left{frac{1}{2}delta_n,(b-a_1)2^{-(n+1)}right}$. The first term in the minimum ensures that $f(x_n)ge -f(a)cdot2^{-n}>0$ while the second term prevents $x_n$ from leaving the interval $[a,b]$.
    The problem I see with this attempt is that if $x_n$ does not enter $(a,b)$ for a finite $n$ (which would occur if $delta_n$ were too small) then I wouldn't get a contradiction.



    Perhaps the correct approach is to use the fact that I am considering the case where $a_1$ and $b_1$ are not isolated. If someone can show me how to prove that $f(x) = |x| sin(1/x)$ if $xne 0$ and $f(0)=0$ satisfies "$exists cin (-1,1), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$ or give me a hint for such a proof then I think I can apply similar reasoning to the general case.



    I know that it is possible to show that this holds by finding a $c$ where $f(c)=0$ and $f'(c)>0$, but I want to prove this without assuming that my function is differentiable.










    share|cite|improve this question
























      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite











      I asked a question similar to this previously but I realized that what I was trying to prove was false. Then I changed the thing I was trying to prove but it was still false. I also accepted an answer that proved my theorem in a special case but that was not true in general. I am trying to prove it again and people stopped commenting on my previous question because I accepted the answer.



      So I am asking a new question.



      The correct version of the theorem I want to prove is "Suppose that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$, $f(a)<0$, and $f(b)>0$. Then $exists cin (a,b), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$.



      I tried to prove this by contradiction. I assumed that $forall cin(a,b), forall delta>0, exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)>0$ or $exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)<0$.



      By Strong IVT I know that $exists a_1in (a,b), forall xin (a,a_1), f(x)<0$.
      Also by Strong IVT I know that $exists b_1in (a,b), forall xin (b_1,b), f(x)>0$.
      I see that $f(a_1)=0$ and $f(b_1)=0$.



      I also know to prove that $a_1$ satisfies what I want if $a_1$ is an isolated zero.



      Similarly, if $b_1$, I know to finish the proof (in both cases I don't need a proof by contradiction).



      Then there is the case where neither $a_1$ or $b_1$ are isolated. Everything I write past this is speculation. Because $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$ and $[a,b]$ is compact, I know that $f$ is uniformly continuous on $[a,b]$. Which means that I know that $varepsilon>0$, $exists delta>0$, $forall x,yin[a,b]$, $|x-y|<delta Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<varepsilon$.



      What I tried to do is "walk" from $a_1$ to $b_1$ to show that for some point $x$ in $(b_1,b) f(x)<0$. I attempted this with the following (insufficient) process.
      I chose $delta_n$ such that $forall xin[a,b], |x-y|<delta_n Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<-f(a)cdot2^{-n}$. Then I defined a sequence $x_n$ such that $x_1=a_1$ and $x_n=x_{n-1}+text{min}left{frac{1}{2}delta_n,(b-a_1)2^{-(n+1)}right}$. The first term in the minimum ensures that $f(x_n)ge -f(a)cdot2^{-n}>0$ while the second term prevents $x_n$ from leaving the interval $[a,b]$.
      The problem I see with this attempt is that if $x_n$ does not enter $(a,b)$ for a finite $n$ (which would occur if $delta_n$ were too small) then I wouldn't get a contradiction.



      Perhaps the correct approach is to use the fact that I am considering the case where $a_1$ and $b_1$ are not isolated. If someone can show me how to prove that $f(x) = |x| sin(1/x)$ if $xne 0$ and $f(0)=0$ satisfies "$exists cin (-1,1), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$ or give me a hint for such a proof then I think I can apply similar reasoning to the general case.



      I know that it is possible to show that this holds by finding a $c$ where $f(c)=0$ and $f'(c)>0$, but I want to prove this without assuming that my function is differentiable.










      share|cite|improve this question













      I asked a question similar to this previously but I realized that what I was trying to prove was false. Then I changed the thing I was trying to prove but it was still false. I also accepted an answer that proved my theorem in a special case but that was not true in general. I am trying to prove it again and people stopped commenting on my previous question because I accepted the answer.



      So I am asking a new question.



      The correct version of the theorem I want to prove is "Suppose that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$, $f(a)<0$, and $f(b)>0$. Then $exists cin (a,b), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$.



      I tried to prove this by contradiction. I assumed that $forall cin(a,b), forall delta>0, exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)>0$ or $exists xin(c-delta,c), f(x)<0$.



      By Strong IVT I know that $exists a_1in (a,b), forall xin (a,a_1), f(x)<0$.
      Also by Strong IVT I know that $exists b_1in (a,b), forall xin (b_1,b), f(x)>0$.
      I see that $f(a_1)=0$ and $f(b_1)=0$.



      I also know to prove that $a_1$ satisfies what I want if $a_1$ is an isolated zero.



      Similarly, if $b_1$, I know to finish the proof (in both cases I don't need a proof by contradiction).



      Then there is the case where neither $a_1$ or $b_1$ are isolated. Everything I write past this is speculation. Because $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$ and $[a,b]$ is compact, I know that $f$ is uniformly continuous on $[a,b]$. Which means that I know that $varepsilon>0$, $exists delta>0$, $forall x,yin[a,b]$, $|x-y|<delta Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<varepsilon$.



      What I tried to do is "walk" from $a_1$ to $b_1$ to show that for some point $x$ in $(b_1,b) f(x)<0$. I attempted this with the following (insufficient) process.
      I chose $delta_n$ such that $forall xin[a,b], |x-y|<delta_n Longrightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<-f(a)cdot2^{-n}$. Then I defined a sequence $x_n$ such that $x_1=a_1$ and $x_n=x_{n-1}+text{min}left{frac{1}{2}delta_n,(b-a_1)2^{-(n+1)}right}$. The first term in the minimum ensures that $f(x_n)ge -f(a)cdot2^{-n}>0$ while the second term prevents $x_n$ from leaving the interval $[a,b]$.
      The problem I see with this attempt is that if $x_n$ does not enter $(a,b)$ for a finite $n$ (which would occur if $delta_n$ were too small) then I wouldn't get a contradiction.



      Perhaps the correct approach is to use the fact that I am considering the case where $a_1$ and $b_1$ are not isolated. If someone can show me how to prove that $f(x) = |x| sin(1/x)$ if $xne 0$ and $f(0)=0$ satisfies "$exists cin (-1,1), exists delta>0, forall xin (c-delta ,c), f(x)le 0$ and $forall xin (c,c+delta ), f(x)ge 0$ or give me a hint for such a proof then I think I can apply similar reasoning to the general case.



      I know that it is possible to show that this holds by finding a $c$ where $f(c)=0$ and $f'(c)>0$, but I want to prove this without assuming that my function is differentiable.







      real-analysis continuity roots uniform-continuity






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      asked Nov 16 at 2:17









      Andrew Murdza

      254




      254






















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          accepted










          Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:



          Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set



          The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
            – bitesizebo
            Nov 16 at 2:44










          • Oh the construction there is clever :)
            – jgon
            Nov 16 at 2:47











          Your Answer





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          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

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          active

          oldest

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          active

          oldest

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          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted










          Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:



          Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set



          The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
            – bitesizebo
            Nov 16 at 2:44










          • Oh the construction there is clever :)
            – jgon
            Nov 16 at 2:47















          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted










          Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:



          Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set



          The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
            – bitesizebo
            Nov 16 at 2:44










          • Oh the construction there is clever :)
            – jgon
            Nov 16 at 2:47













          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted






          Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:



          Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set



          The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          Unfortunately I believe your proposition is false. Your question is intimately connected to this question:



          Continuous function changing sign on Cantor set



          The basic issue is that there is a continuous function whose set of points at which it changes sign is contains no isolated points which would be required in order for your proposition to be true.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Nov 16 at 3:00

























          answered Nov 16 at 2:32









          bitesizebo

          1,39618




          1,39618












          • Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
            – bitesizebo
            Nov 16 at 2:44










          • Oh the construction there is clever :)
            – jgon
            Nov 16 at 2:47


















          • Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
            – bitesizebo
            Nov 16 at 2:44










          • Oh the construction there is clever :)
            – jgon
            Nov 16 at 2:47
















          Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
          – bitesizebo
          Nov 16 at 2:44




          Yes, good point. I've edited my answer to reflect this.
          – bitesizebo
          Nov 16 at 2:44












          Oh the construction there is clever :)
          – jgon
          Nov 16 at 2:47




          Oh the construction there is clever :)
          – jgon
          Nov 16 at 2:47


















           

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