Equivalent finite sets have the same number of elements (odd proof)











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I am working through Rudin's POMA and in Chapter 2 on Basic Topology he gives the following definition of one-to-one correspondence:




If there exists a 1-1 mapping of $A$ onto $B$, we say that $A$ and $B$ can be put in 1-1 correspondence, or that $A$ and $B$ have the same cardinal number, or, briefly, that $A$ and $B$ are equivalent, and we write $Asim B$. This relation clearly has the following properties:




  • It is reflexive: $Asim A$.

  • It is symmetric: If $Asim B$, then $Bsim A$.

  • It is transitive: If $Asim B$ and $Bsim C$, then $Asim C$.




Rudin later goes on to say, "For two finite sets $A$ and $B$, we evidently have $Asim B$ if and only if $A$ and $B$ contain the same number of elements."



Rudin never defines what cardinal or ordinal numbers are (even though he says $Asim B$ for finite sets means $A$ and $B$ have the same cardinal number...he never defines a cardinal number) and does not go into set theory in any real depth.





Curiosity: I was thinking about Rudin's statement about finite sets and was wondering how one might prove that. I read an alleged proof in Raffi Grinberg's Real Analysis Lifesaver book (a book I really do not like to be honest), and I'm really questioning whether or not it is accurate. It is reproduced below:




Raffi's proof: Let $A$ and $B$ be finite sets. We claim that $Asim B$ if and only if $A$ and $B$ have the same number of elements.



If $Asim B$, then there exists a function that maps every element of $A$ (since $f$ is a well-defined function) to at most one element of $B$ (since $f$ is injective), and every element of $B$ is mapped to by some element of $A$ (since $f$ is surjective). So for every element of $A$ there is a corresponding element of $B$, and all elements of $B$ are covered by this correspondence, so $A$ and $B$ must have the same number of elements.



If $A$ and $B$ have the same number $n$ of elements, then we can write the sets as $A={a_1,a_2,ldots,a_n}$ and $B={b_1,b_2,ldots,b_n}$. Let $fcolon Ato B$ be defined as $fcolon a_imapsto b_i$, for every $1leq ileq n$. Then $f$ is a one-to-one, onto function, so $f$ is a bijection. We have found a bijection $Ato B$, so $Asim B$.




Question: Is this proof really correct? It seems hand-wavy at best, especially the first part (the forward direction)---the finiteness of $A$ and $B$ do not seem to matter. The same argument would seem to work in the case of infinite sets $mathbb N$ and $mathbb Z$, where $mathbb Nsimmathbb Z$, but we do not think of these sets as having the same number of elements in the manner argued above (do we?). More concerning, since Grinberg admits in the introduction/preface that his book is basically based on Rudin's, I wonder how he proposes to prove something about cardinal numbers (i.e., that equivalent finite sets have the same cardinal number) when they have not actually been defined (in his book or in Rudin's).



I was reading in Enderton's Elements of Set Theory that, "Now it turns out that there is no way of defining $operatorname{card} A$ that is really simple" (p. 136). He later gives the definition: "For any set $A$, define the cardinal number of $A$ ($operatorname{card} A$) to be the least ordinal equinumerous to $A$" (p. 197).



Ultimately, there seems to be a fair amount going on here (to a novice like me at least), but I did not find Grinberg's proof very convincing. Am I wrong to feel that way? Is there an easy fix? Any thoughts?










share|cite|improve this question






















  • I agree that it is a bit odd ... I always thought cardinality was defined to be an equivalence relation based on bijections, so this proof, in the context I learned, is meaningless. Do you happen to know what Grinberg's definition of number of elements is? I have a feeling that its a handwavy definition, which is probably why the proof is handwavy.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 17 at 21:40






  • 1




    @RushabhMehta He never defines "number of elements"---here he defines cardinality and here he states and "proves" the theorem. The proof really does not make much sense to me. It seems, as you said, "meaningless," but I'm no set-theorist...
    – Jessica
    Nov 17 at 21:45










  • Honestly, this is a excellent question, and I totally agree with you (trust me, I'm pretty harsh on new users so great job)! Enjoy your upvote.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 17 at 22:13












  • Does he define "finiteness"?
    – user58697
    Nov 17 at 23:53










  • @RushabhMehta Thanks--it's probably worth noting that Grinberg only graduated with honors from Princeton with a degree in math in 2012 (from back cover). It's not like he's a professor or anything. I don't want to question his ability, but some things in that book look very wrong. For example, here is his explanation/proof for why $mathbb Z$ is countable. But his explanation is entirely deficient in my opinion.
    – Jessica
    Nov 18 at 19:08

















up vote
3
down vote

favorite












I am working through Rudin's POMA and in Chapter 2 on Basic Topology he gives the following definition of one-to-one correspondence:




If there exists a 1-1 mapping of $A$ onto $B$, we say that $A$ and $B$ can be put in 1-1 correspondence, or that $A$ and $B$ have the same cardinal number, or, briefly, that $A$ and $B$ are equivalent, and we write $Asim B$. This relation clearly has the following properties:




  • It is reflexive: $Asim A$.

  • It is symmetric: If $Asim B$, then $Bsim A$.

  • It is transitive: If $Asim B$ and $Bsim C$, then $Asim C$.




Rudin later goes on to say, "For two finite sets $A$ and $B$, we evidently have $Asim B$ if and only if $A$ and $B$ contain the same number of elements."



Rudin never defines what cardinal or ordinal numbers are (even though he says $Asim B$ for finite sets means $A$ and $B$ have the same cardinal number...he never defines a cardinal number) and does not go into set theory in any real depth.





Curiosity: I was thinking about Rudin's statement about finite sets and was wondering how one might prove that. I read an alleged proof in Raffi Grinberg's Real Analysis Lifesaver book (a book I really do not like to be honest), and I'm really questioning whether or not it is accurate. It is reproduced below:




Raffi's proof: Let $A$ and $B$ be finite sets. We claim that $Asim B$ if and only if $A$ and $B$ have the same number of elements.



If $Asim B$, then there exists a function that maps every element of $A$ (since $f$ is a well-defined function) to at most one element of $B$ (since $f$ is injective), and every element of $B$ is mapped to by some element of $A$ (since $f$ is surjective). So for every element of $A$ there is a corresponding element of $B$, and all elements of $B$ are covered by this correspondence, so $A$ and $B$ must have the same number of elements.



If $A$ and $B$ have the same number $n$ of elements, then we can write the sets as $A={a_1,a_2,ldots,a_n}$ and $B={b_1,b_2,ldots,b_n}$. Let $fcolon Ato B$ be defined as $fcolon a_imapsto b_i$, for every $1leq ileq n$. Then $f$ is a one-to-one, onto function, so $f$ is a bijection. We have found a bijection $Ato B$, so $Asim B$.




Question: Is this proof really correct? It seems hand-wavy at best, especially the first part (the forward direction)---the finiteness of $A$ and $B$ do not seem to matter. The same argument would seem to work in the case of infinite sets $mathbb N$ and $mathbb Z$, where $mathbb Nsimmathbb Z$, but we do not think of these sets as having the same number of elements in the manner argued above (do we?). More concerning, since Grinberg admits in the introduction/preface that his book is basically based on Rudin's, I wonder how he proposes to prove something about cardinal numbers (i.e., that equivalent finite sets have the same cardinal number) when they have not actually been defined (in his book or in Rudin's).



I was reading in Enderton's Elements of Set Theory that, "Now it turns out that there is no way of defining $operatorname{card} A$ that is really simple" (p. 136). He later gives the definition: "For any set $A$, define the cardinal number of $A$ ($operatorname{card} A$) to be the least ordinal equinumerous to $A$" (p. 197).



Ultimately, there seems to be a fair amount going on here (to a novice like me at least), but I did not find Grinberg's proof very convincing. Am I wrong to feel that way? Is there an easy fix? Any thoughts?










share|cite|improve this question






















  • I agree that it is a bit odd ... I always thought cardinality was defined to be an equivalence relation based on bijections, so this proof, in the context I learned, is meaningless. Do you happen to know what Grinberg's definition of number of elements is? I have a feeling that its a handwavy definition, which is probably why the proof is handwavy.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 17 at 21:40






  • 1




    @RushabhMehta He never defines "number of elements"---here he defines cardinality and here he states and "proves" the theorem. The proof really does not make much sense to me. It seems, as you said, "meaningless," but I'm no set-theorist...
    – Jessica
    Nov 17 at 21:45










  • Honestly, this is a excellent question, and I totally agree with you (trust me, I'm pretty harsh on new users so great job)! Enjoy your upvote.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 17 at 22:13












  • Does he define "finiteness"?
    – user58697
    Nov 17 at 23:53










  • @RushabhMehta Thanks--it's probably worth noting that Grinberg only graduated with honors from Princeton with a degree in math in 2012 (from back cover). It's not like he's a professor or anything. I don't want to question his ability, but some things in that book look very wrong. For example, here is his explanation/proof for why $mathbb Z$ is countable. But his explanation is entirely deficient in my opinion.
    – Jessica
    Nov 18 at 19:08















up vote
3
down vote

favorite









up vote
3
down vote

favorite











I am working through Rudin's POMA and in Chapter 2 on Basic Topology he gives the following definition of one-to-one correspondence:




If there exists a 1-1 mapping of $A$ onto $B$, we say that $A$ and $B$ can be put in 1-1 correspondence, or that $A$ and $B$ have the same cardinal number, or, briefly, that $A$ and $B$ are equivalent, and we write $Asim B$. This relation clearly has the following properties:




  • It is reflexive: $Asim A$.

  • It is symmetric: If $Asim B$, then $Bsim A$.

  • It is transitive: If $Asim B$ and $Bsim C$, then $Asim C$.




Rudin later goes on to say, "For two finite sets $A$ and $B$, we evidently have $Asim B$ if and only if $A$ and $B$ contain the same number of elements."



Rudin never defines what cardinal or ordinal numbers are (even though he says $Asim B$ for finite sets means $A$ and $B$ have the same cardinal number...he never defines a cardinal number) and does not go into set theory in any real depth.





Curiosity: I was thinking about Rudin's statement about finite sets and was wondering how one might prove that. I read an alleged proof in Raffi Grinberg's Real Analysis Lifesaver book (a book I really do not like to be honest), and I'm really questioning whether or not it is accurate. It is reproduced below:




Raffi's proof: Let $A$ and $B$ be finite sets. We claim that $Asim B$ if and only if $A$ and $B$ have the same number of elements.



If $Asim B$, then there exists a function that maps every element of $A$ (since $f$ is a well-defined function) to at most one element of $B$ (since $f$ is injective), and every element of $B$ is mapped to by some element of $A$ (since $f$ is surjective). So for every element of $A$ there is a corresponding element of $B$, and all elements of $B$ are covered by this correspondence, so $A$ and $B$ must have the same number of elements.



If $A$ and $B$ have the same number $n$ of elements, then we can write the sets as $A={a_1,a_2,ldots,a_n}$ and $B={b_1,b_2,ldots,b_n}$. Let $fcolon Ato B$ be defined as $fcolon a_imapsto b_i$, for every $1leq ileq n$. Then $f$ is a one-to-one, onto function, so $f$ is a bijection. We have found a bijection $Ato B$, so $Asim B$.




Question: Is this proof really correct? It seems hand-wavy at best, especially the first part (the forward direction)---the finiteness of $A$ and $B$ do not seem to matter. The same argument would seem to work in the case of infinite sets $mathbb N$ and $mathbb Z$, where $mathbb Nsimmathbb Z$, but we do not think of these sets as having the same number of elements in the manner argued above (do we?). More concerning, since Grinberg admits in the introduction/preface that his book is basically based on Rudin's, I wonder how he proposes to prove something about cardinal numbers (i.e., that equivalent finite sets have the same cardinal number) when they have not actually been defined (in his book or in Rudin's).



I was reading in Enderton's Elements of Set Theory that, "Now it turns out that there is no way of defining $operatorname{card} A$ that is really simple" (p. 136). He later gives the definition: "For any set $A$, define the cardinal number of $A$ ($operatorname{card} A$) to be the least ordinal equinumerous to $A$" (p. 197).



Ultimately, there seems to be a fair amount going on here (to a novice like me at least), but I did not find Grinberg's proof very convincing. Am I wrong to feel that way? Is there an easy fix? Any thoughts?










share|cite|improve this question













I am working through Rudin's POMA and in Chapter 2 on Basic Topology he gives the following definition of one-to-one correspondence:




If there exists a 1-1 mapping of $A$ onto $B$, we say that $A$ and $B$ can be put in 1-1 correspondence, or that $A$ and $B$ have the same cardinal number, or, briefly, that $A$ and $B$ are equivalent, and we write $Asim B$. This relation clearly has the following properties:




  • It is reflexive: $Asim A$.

  • It is symmetric: If $Asim B$, then $Bsim A$.

  • It is transitive: If $Asim B$ and $Bsim C$, then $Asim C$.




Rudin later goes on to say, "For two finite sets $A$ and $B$, we evidently have $Asim B$ if and only if $A$ and $B$ contain the same number of elements."



Rudin never defines what cardinal or ordinal numbers are (even though he says $Asim B$ for finite sets means $A$ and $B$ have the same cardinal number...he never defines a cardinal number) and does not go into set theory in any real depth.





Curiosity: I was thinking about Rudin's statement about finite sets and was wondering how one might prove that. I read an alleged proof in Raffi Grinberg's Real Analysis Lifesaver book (a book I really do not like to be honest), and I'm really questioning whether or not it is accurate. It is reproduced below:




Raffi's proof: Let $A$ and $B$ be finite sets. We claim that $Asim B$ if and only if $A$ and $B$ have the same number of elements.



If $Asim B$, then there exists a function that maps every element of $A$ (since $f$ is a well-defined function) to at most one element of $B$ (since $f$ is injective), and every element of $B$ is mapped to by some element of $A$ (since $f$ is surjective). So for every element of $A$ there is a corresponding element of $B$, and all elements of $B$ are covered by this correspondence, so $A$ and $B$ must have the same number of elements.



If $A$ and $B$ have the same number $n$ of elements, then we can write the sets as $A={a_1,a_2,ldots,a_n}$ and $B={b_1,b_2,ldots,b_n}$. Let $fcolon Ato B$ be defined as $fcolon a_imapsto b_i$, for every $1leq ileq n$. Then $f$ is a one-to-one, onto function, so $f$ is a bijection. We have found a bijection $Ato B$, so $Asim B$.




Question: Is this proof really correct? It seems hand-wavy at best, especially the first part (the forward direction)---the finiteness of $A$ and $B$ do not seem to matter. The same argument would seem to work in the case of infinite sets $mathbb N$ and $mathbb Z$, where $mathbb Nsimmathbb Z$, but we do not think of these sets as having the same number of elements in the manner argued above (do we?). More concerning, since Grinberg admits in the introduction/preface that his book is basically based on Rudin's, I wonder how he proposes to prove something about cardinal numbers (i.e., that equivalent finite sets have the same cardinal number) when they have not actually been defined (in his book or in Rudin's).



I was reading in Enderton's Elements of Set Theory that, "Now it turns out that there is no way of defining $operatorname{card} A$ that is really simple" (p. 136). He later gives the definition: "For any set $A$, define the cardinal number of $A$ ($operatorname{card} A$) to be the least ordinal equinumerous to $A$" (p. 197).



Ultimately, there seems to be a fair amount going on here (to a novice like me at least), but I did not find Grinberg's proof very convincing. Am I wrong to feel that way? Is there an easy fix? Any thoughts?







real-analysis elementary-set-theory cardinals






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Nov 17 at 21:34









Jessica

414




414












  • I agree that it is a bit odd ... I always thought cardinality was defined to be an equivalence relation based on bijections, so this proof, in the context I learned, is meaningless. Do you happen to know what Grinberg's definition of number of elements is? I have a feeling that its a handwavy definition, which is probably why the proof is handwavy.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 17 at 21:40






  • 1




    @RushabhMehta He never defines "number of elements"---here he defines cardinality and here he states and "proves" the theorem. The proof really does not make much sense to me. It seems, as you said, "meaningless," but I'm no set-theorist...
    – Jessica
    Nov 17 at 21:45










  • Honestly, this is a excellent question, and I totally agree with you (trust me, I'm pretty harsh on new users so great job)! Enjoy your upvote.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 17 at 22:13












  • Does he define "finiteness"?
    – user58697
    Nov 17 at 23:53










  • @RushabhMehta Thanks--it's probably worth noting that Grinberg only graduated with honors from Princeton with a degree in math in 2012 (from back cover). It's not like he's a professor or anything. I don't want to question his ability, but some things in that book look very wrong. For example, here is his explanation/proof for why $mathbb Z$ is countable. But his explanation is entirely deficient in my opinion.
    – Jessica
    Nov 18 at 19:08




















  • I agree that it is a bit odd ... I always thought cardinality was defined to be an equivalence relation based on bijections, so this proof, in the context I learned, is meaningless. Do you happen to know what Grinberg's definition of number of elements is? I have a feeling that its a handwavy definition, which is probably why the proof is handwavy.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 17 at 21:40






  • 1




    @RushabhMehta He never defines "number of elements"---here he defines cardinality and here he states and "proves" the theorem. The proof really does not make much sense to me. It seems, as you said, "meaningless," but I'm no set-theorist...
    – Jessica
    Nov 17 at 21:45










  • Honestly, this is a excellent question, and I totally agree with you (trust me, I'm pretty harsh on new users so great job)! Enjoy your upvote.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 17 at 22:13












  • Does he define "finiteness"?
    – user58697
    Nov 17 at 23:53










  • @RushabhMehta Thanks--it's probably worth noting that Grinberg only graduated with honors from Princeton with a degree in math in 2012 (from back cover). It's not like he's a professor or anything. I don't want to question his ability, but some things in that book look very wrong. For example, here is his explanation/proof for why $mathbb Z$ is countable. But his explanation is entirely deficient in my opinion.
    – Jessica
    Nov 18 at 19:08


















I agree that it is a bit odd ... I always thought cardinality was defined to be an equivalence relation based on bijections, so this proof, in the context I learned, is meaningless. Do you happen to know what Grinberg's definition of number of elements is? I have a feeling that its a handwavy definition, which is probably why the proof is handwavy.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 17 at 21:40




I agree that it is a bit odd ... I always thought cardinality was defined to be an equivalence relation based on bijections, so this proof, in the context I learned, is meaningless. Do you happen to know what Grinberg's definition of number of elements is? I have a feeling that its a handwavy definition, which is probably why the proof is handwavy.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 17 at 21:40




1




1




@RushabhMehta He never defines "number of elements"---here he defines cardinality and here he states and "proves" the theorem. The proof really does not make much sense to me. It seems, as you said, "meaningless," but I'm no set-theorist...
– Jessica
Nov 17 at 21:45




@RushabhMehta He never defines "number of elements"---here he defines cardinality and here he states and "proves" the theorem. The proof really does not make much sense to me. It seems, as you said, "meaningless," but I'm no set-theorist...
– Jessica
Nov 17 at 21:45












Honestly, this is a excellent question, and I totally agree with you (trust me, I'm pretty harsh on new users so great job)! Enjoy your upvote.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 17 at 22:13






Honestly, this is a excellent question, and I totally agree with you (trust me, I'm pretty harsh on new users so great job)! Enjoy your upvote.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 17 at 22:13














Does he define "finiteness"?
– user58697
Nov 17 at 23:53




Does he define "finiteness"?
– user58697
Nov 17 at 23:53












@RushabhMehta Thanks--it's probably worth noting that Grinberg only graduated with honors from Princeton with a degree in math in 2012 (from back cover). It's not like he's a professor or anything. I don't want to question his ability, but some things in that book look very wrong. For example, here is his explanation/proof for why $mathbb Z$ is countable. But his explanation is entirely deficient in my opinion.
– Jessica
Nov 18 at 19:08






@RushabhMehta Thanks--it's probably worth noting that Grinberg only graduated with honors from Princeton with a degree in math in 2012 (from back cover). It's not like he's a professor or anything. I don't want to question his ability, but some things in that book look very wrong. For example, here is his explanation/proof for why $mathbb Z$ is countable. But his explanation is entirely deficient in my opinion.
– Jessica
Nov 18 at 19:08

















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