Proving that the input space of a surjective linear transformation has a dimension at least as large as the...











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Say we have a linear transformation $T : V to W$. We know that $T$ is surjective or “onto $W$”.



I'm trying to prove that $n = dim(V) > m = dim(W)$. Intuitively, this makes sense. $V$ would have to be at least as “large” as $W$ in order for every vector in $W$ to be the image of at least one vector in $V$.



I'm having trouble sort of “wrapping up” this proof. Here's what I have.





Let $x in V, y in W$.



We know $x$ must be a linear combination of some basis for $V$. Say that basis is ${v_1, cdots, v_n}$. $x = c_1v_1 + cdots + c_nv_n$.



From the properties of a linear transformation we know that: $T(x) = c_1T(v_1) + cdots + c_nT(v_n) = y$.



This tells me that $y$ is a linear combination of the set ${T(v_1), cdots T(v_n)}$. This means that the some (non-strict) subset of ${T(v_1), cdots, T(v_n)}$ must form a basis for $W$. A basis for $W$ requires at least $m$ linearly independent vectors. Thus, $n geq m$.





My gut says this feels incomplete. I feel like I've made an assumption that the set ${T(v_1), cdots, T(v_n)}$ is linearly independent because we know ${v_1, cdots, v_n}$ is, but I haven't shown that. Any hints?










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  • 1




    Can you use the rank-nullity formula?
    – Bernard
    Nov 17 at 20:12















up vote
1
down vote

favorite












Say we have a linear transformation $T : V to W$. We know that $T$ is surjective or “onto $W$”.



I'm trying to prove that $n = dim(V) > m = dim(W)$. Intuitively, this makes sense. $V$ would have to be at least as “large” as $W$ in order for every vector in $W$ to be the image of at least one vector in $V$.



I'm having trouble sort of “wrapping up” this proof. Here's what I have.





Let $x in V, y in W$.



We know $x$ must be a linear combination of some basis for $V$. Say that basis is ${v_1, cdots, v_n}$. $x = c_1v_1 + cdots + c_nv_n$.



From the properties of a linear transformation we know that: $T(x) = c_1T(v_1) + cdots + c_nT(v_n) = y$.



This tells me that $y$ is a linear combination of the set ${T(v_1), cdots T(v_n)}$. This means that the some (non-strict) subset of ${T(v_1), cdots, T(v_n)}$ must form a basis for $W$. A basis for $W$ requires at least $m$ linearly independent vectors. Thus, $n geq m$.





My gut says this feels incomplete. I feel like I've made an assumption that the set ${T(v_1), cdots, T(v_n)}$ is linearly independent because we know ${v_1, cdots, v_n}$ is, but I haven't shown that. Any hints?










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 1




    Can you use the rank-nullity formula?
    – Bernard
    Nov 17 at 20:12













up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











Say we have a linear transformation $T : V to W$. We know that $T$ is surjective or “onto $W$”.



I'm trying to prove that $n = dim(V) > m = dim(W)$. Intuitively, this makes sense. $V$ would have to be at least as “large” as $W$ in order for every vector in $W$ to be the image of at least one vector in $V$.



I'm having trouble sort of “wrapping up” this proof. Here's what I have.





Let $x in V, y in W$.



We know $x$ must be a linear combination of some basis for $V$. Say that basis is ${v_1, cdots, v_n}$. $x = c_1v_1 + cdots + c_nv_n$.



From the properties of a linear transformation we know that: $T(x) = c_1T(v_1) + cdots + c_nT(v_n) = y$.



This tells me that $y$ is a linear combination of the set ${T(v_1), cdots T(v_n)}$. This means that the some (non-strict) subset of ${T(v_1), cdots, T(v_n)}$ must form a basis for $W$. A basis for $W$ requires at least $m$ linearly independent vectors. Thus, $n geq m$.





My gut says this feels incomplete. I feel like I've made an assumption that the set ${T(v_1), cdots, T(v_n)}$ is linearly independent because we know ${v_1, cdots, v_n}$ is, but I haven't shown that. Any hints?










share|cite|improve this question















Say we have a linear transformation $T : V to W$. We know that $T$ is surjective or “onto $W$”.



I'm trying to prove that $n = dim(V) > m = dim(W)$. Intuitively, this makes sense. $V$ would have to be at least as “large” as $W$ in order for every vector in $W$ to be the image of at least one vector in $V$.



I'm having trouble sort of “wrapping up” this proof. Here's what I have.





Let $x in V, y in W$.



We know $x$ must be a linear combination of some basis for $V$. Say that basis is ${v_1, cdots, v_n}$. $x = c_1v_1 + cdots + c_nv_n$.



From the properties of a linear transformation we know that: $T(x) = c_1T(v_1) + cdots + c_nT(v_n) = y$.



This tells me that $y$ is a linear combination of the set ${T(v_1), cdots T(v_n)}$. This means that the some (non-strict) subset of ${T(v_1), cdots, T(v_n)}$ must form a basis for $W$. A basis for $W$ requires at least $m$ linearly independent vectors. Thus, $n geq m$.





My gut says this feels incomplete. I feel like I've made an assumption that the set ${T(v_1), cdots, T(v_n)}$ is linearly independent because we know ${v_1, cdots, v_n}$ is, but I haven't shown that. Any hints?







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edited Nov 17 at 20:55

























asked Nov 17 at 20:00









Emily Horsman

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  • 1




    Can you use the rank-nullity formula?
    – Bernard
    Nov 17 at 20:12














  • 1




    Can you use the rank-nullity formula?
    – Bernard
    Nov 17 at 20:12








1




1




Can you use the rank-nullity formula?
– Bernard
Nov 17 at 20:12




Can you use the rank-nullity formula?
– Bernard
Nov 17 at 20:12










2 Answers
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oldest

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1
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accepted










Your idea is good: if ${v_1,dots,v_n}$ is a basis of $V$, then ${T(v_1),dots,T(v_n)}$ is a spanning set for $W$, which you can extract a basis from. Therefore $dim Wledim V$.



How can you extract a basis? Suppose that ${u_1,dots,u_r}$ is a spanning set of the vector space $U$. Then either the set is linearly dependent or independent. In the latter case you're finished. Otherwise, one vector is a linear combination of the others; without loss of generality, it can be taken as $u_r$ and then ${u_1,dots,u_{r-1}}$ is again a spanning set. Repeat until you have to stop because the set you get is linearly independent.





The rank-nullity theorem tells even more: if $Tcolon Vto W$ is a linear map, then
$$
dim V=dimker T+dimoperatorname{im}T
$$

(where $ker T$ is the kernel and $operatorname{im}T$ is the image). If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W=dim V-dimker Tle dim V$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • "If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W = dim V - dim ker T$" Does this imply that $T$ maps any vector in $V$ to either a vector in $W$ or to 0?
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:34












  • @EmilyHorsman Isn't $0$ a vector in $W$? Don't read too much in the formula: it's a numeric relation between dimensions.
    – egreg
    Nov 17 at 21:34












  • Ah right, that's true.
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:34










  • Okay here's my summary to ensure I understand. $text{rank}(T) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T)$. $dim(W) = text{rank}(T)$ since $T$ is surjective and thus every vector in $W$ is the image of a vector in $V$. $dim(W) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T) leq dim(V)$.
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:52












  • @EmilyHorsman Right so.
    – egreg
    Nov 17 at 22:03


















up vote
1
down vote













I would start from a basis of $W$: $w_1,ldots,w_m$. $T$ is surjective then there are $v_1,ldots,v_m$ such that $w_k=T(v_k)$. It is straigthforward by definition to verify that $v_1,ldots, v_m$ are linearly independent
$$
sum c_kv_k=0implies Tbig(sum c_kv_kbig)=sum c_k w_k=0implies text{ all }c_k=0,
$$

hence, $nge m$.






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    Your idea is good: if ${v_1,dots,v_n}$ is a basis of $V$, then ${T(v_1),dots,T(v_n)}$ is a spanning set for $W$, which you can extract a basis from. Therefore $dim Wledim V$.



    How can you extract a basis? Suppose that ${u_1,dots,u_r}$ is a spanning set of the vector space $U$. Then either the set is linearly dependent or independent. In the latter case you're finished. Otherwise, one vector is a linear combination of the others; without loss of generality, it can be taken as $u_r$ and then ${u_1,dots,u_{r-1}}$ is again a spanning set. Repeat until you have to stop because the set you get is linearly independent.





    The rank-nullity theorem tells even more: if $Tcolon Vto W$ is a linear map, then
    $$
    dim V=dimker T+dimoperatorname{im}T
    $$

    (where $ker T$ is the kernel and $operatorname{im}T$ is the image). If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W=dim V-dimker Tle dim V$.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • "If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W = dim V - dim ker T$" Does this imply that $T$ maps any vector in $V$ to either a vector in $W$ or to 0?
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:34












    • @EmilyHorsman Isn't $0$ a vector in $W$? Don't read too much in the formula: it's a numeric relation between dimensions.
      – egreg
      Nov 17 at 21:34












    • Ah right, that's true.
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:34










    • Okay here's my summary to ensure I understand. $text{rank}(T) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T)$. $dim(W) = text{rank}(T)$ since $T$ is surjective and thus every vector in $W$ is the image of a vector in $V$. $dim(W) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T) leq dim(V)$.
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:52












    • @EmilyHorsman Right so.
      – egreg
      Nov 17 at 22:03















    up vote
    1
    down vote



    accepted










    Your idea is good: if ${v_1,dots,v_n}$ is a basis of $V$, then ${T(v_1),dots,T(v_n)}$ is a spanning set for $W$, which you can extract a basis from. Therefore $dim Wledim V$.



    How can you extract a basis? Suppose that ${u_1,dots,u_r}$ is a spanning set of the vector space $U$. Then either the set is linearly dependent or independent. In the latter case you're finished. Otherwise, one vector is a linear combination of the others; without loss of generality, it can be taken as $u_r$ and then ${u_1,dots,u_{r-1}}$ is again a spanning set. Repeat until you have to stop because the set you get is linearly independent.





    The rank-nullity theorem tells even more: if $Tcolon Vto W$ is a linear map, then
    $$
    dim V=dimker T+dimoperatorname{im}T
    $$

    (where $ker T$ is the kernel and $operatorname{im}T$ is the image). If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W=dim V-dimker Tle dim V$.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • "If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W = dim V - dim ker T$" Does this imply that $T$ maps any vector in $V$ to either a vector in $W$ or to 0?
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:34












    • @EmilyHorsman Isn't $0$ a vector in $W$? Don't read too much in the formula: it's a numeric relation between dimensions.
      – egreg
      Nov 17 at 21:34












    • Ah right, that's true.
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:34










    • Okay here's my summary to ensure I understand. $text{rank}(T) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T)$. $dim(W) = text{rank}(T)$ since $T$ is surjective and thus every vector in $W$ is the image of a vector in $V$. $dim(W) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T) leq dim(V)$.
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:52












    • @EmilyHorsman Right so.
      – egreg
      Nov 17 at 22:03













    up vote
    1
    down vote



    accepted







    up vote
    1
    down vote



    accepted






    Your idea is good: if ${v_1,dots,v_n}$ is a basis of $V$, then ${T(v_1),dots,T(v_n)}$ is a spanning set for $W$, which you can extract a basis from. Therefore $dim Wledim V$.



    How can you extract a basis? Suppose that ${u_1,dots,u_r}$ is a spanning set of the vector space $U$. Then either the set is linearly dependent or independent. In the latter case you're finished. Otherwise, one vector is a linear combination of the others; without loss of generality, it can be taken as $u_r$ and then ${u_1,dots,u_{r-1}}$ is again a spanning set. Repeat until you have to stop because the set you get is linearly independent.





    The rank-nullity theorem tells even more: if $Tcolon Vto W$ is a linear map, then
    $$
    dim V=dimker T+dimoperatorname{im}T
    $$

    (where $ker T$ is the kernel and $operatorname{im}T$ is the image). If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W=dim V-dimker Tle dim V$.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    Your idea is good: if ${v_1,dots,v_n}$ is a basis of $V$, then ${T(v_1),dots,T(v_n)}$ is a spanning set for $W$, which you can extract a basis from. Therefore $dim Wledim V$.



    How can you extract a basis? Suppose that ${u_1,dots,u_r}$ is a spanning set of the vector space $U$. Then either the set is linearly dependent or independent. In the latter case you're finished. Otherwise, one vector is a linear combination of the others; without loss of generality, it can be taken as $u_r$ and then ${u_1,dots,u_{r-1}}$ is again a spanning set. Repeat until you have to stop because the set you get is linearly independent.





    The rank-nullity theorem tells even more: if $Tcolon Vto W$ is a linear map, then
    $$
    dim V=dimker T+dimoperatorname{im}T
    $$

    (where $ker T$ is the kernel and $operatorname{im}T$ is the image). If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W=dim V-dimker Tle dim V$.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered Nov 17 at 21:23









    egreg

    175k1383198




    175k1383198












    • "If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W = dim V - dim ker T$" Does this imply that $T$ maps any vector in $V$ to either a vector in $W$ or to 0?
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:34












    • @EmilyHorsman Isn't $0$ a vector in $W$? Don't read too much in the formula: it's a numeric relation between dimensions.
      – egreg
      Nov 17 at 21:34












    • Ah right, that's true.
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:34










    • Okay here's my summary to ensure I understand. $text{rank}(T) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T)$. $dim(W) = text{rank}(T)$ since $T$ is surjective and thus every vector in $W$ is the image of a vector in $V$. $dim(W) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T) leq dim(V)$.
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:52












    • @EmilyHorsman Right so.
      – egreg
      Nov 17 at 22:03


















    • "If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W = dim V - dim ker T$" Does this imply that $T$ maps any vector in $V$ to either a vector in $W$ or to 0?
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:34












    • @EmilyHorsman Isn't $0$ a vector in $W$? Don't read too much in the formula: it's a numeric relation between dimensions.
      – egreg
      Nov 17 at 21:34












    • Ah right, that's true.
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:34










    • Okay here's my summary to ensure I understand. $text{rank}(T) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T)$. $dim(W) = text{rank}(T)$ since $T$ is surjective and thus every vector in $W$ is the image of a vector in $V$. $dim(W) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T) leq dim(V)$.
      – Emily Horsman
      Nov 17 at 21:52












    • @EmilyHorsman Right so.
      – egreg
      Nov 17 at 22:03
















    "If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W = dim V - dim ker T$" Does this imply that $T$ maps any vector in $V$ to either a vector in $W$ or to 0?
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:34






    "If $T$ is surjective, then $dim W = dim V - dim ker T$" Does this imply that $T$ maps any vector in $V$ to either a vector in $W$ or to 0?
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:34














    @EmilyHorsman Isn't $0$ a vector in $W$? Don't read too much in the formula: it's a numeric relation between dimensions.
    – egreg
    Nov 17 at 21:34






    @EmilyHorsman Isn't $0$ a vector in $W$? Don't read too much in the formula: it's a numeric relation between dimensions.
    – egreg
    Nov 17 at 21:34














    Ah right, that's true.
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:34




    Ah right, that's true.
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:34












    Okay here's my summary to ensure I understand. $text{rank}(T) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T)$. $dim(W) = text{rank}(T)$ since $T$ is surjective and thus every vector in $W$ is the image of a vector in $V$. $dim(W) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T) leq dim(V)$.
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:52






    Okay here's my summary to ensure I understand. $text{rank}(T) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T)$. $dim(W) = text{rank}(T)$ since $T$ is surjective and thus every vector in $W$ is the image of a vector in $V$. $dim(W) = dim(V) - text{nullity}(T) leq dim(V)$.
    – Emily Horsman
    Nov 17 at 21:52














    @EmilyHorsman Right so.
    – egreg
    Nov 17 at 22:03




    @EmilyHorsman Right so.
    – egreg
    Nov 17 at 22:03










    up vote
    1
    down vote













    I would start from a basis of $W$: $w_1,ldots,w_m$. $T$ is surjective then there are $v_1,ldots,v_m$ such that $w_k=T(v_k)$. It is straigthforward by definition to verify that $v_1,ldots, v_m$ are linearly independent
    $$
    sum c_kv_k=0implies Tbig(sum c_kv_kbig)=sum c_k w_k=0implies text{ all }c_k=0,
    $$

    hence, $nge m$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      I would start from a basis of $W$: $w_1,ldots,w_m$. $T$ is surjective then there are $v_1,ldots,v_m$ such that $w_k=T(v_k)$. It is straigthforward by definition to verify that $v_1,ldots, v_m$ are linearly independent
      $$
      sum c_kv_k=0implies Tbig(sum c_kv_kbig)=sum c_k w_k=0implies text{ all }c_k=0,
      $$

      hence, $nge m$.






      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote









        I would start from a basis of $W$: $w_1,ldots,w_m$. $T$ is surjective then there are $v_1,ldots,v_m$ such that $w_k=T(v_k)$. It is straigthforward by definition to verify that $v_1,ldots, v_m$ are linearly independent
        $$
        sum c_kv_k=0implies Tbig(sum c_kv_kbig)=sum c_k w_k=0implies text{ all }c_k=0,
        $$

        hence, $nge m$.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        I would start from a basis of $W$: $w_1,ldots,w_m$. $T$ is surjective then there are $v_1,ldots,v_m$ such that $w_k=T(v_k)$. It is straigthforward by definition to verify that $v_1,ldots, v_m$ are linearly independent
        $$
        sum c_kv_k=0implies Tbig(sum c_kv_kbig)=sum c_k w_k=0implies text{ all }c_k=0,
        $$

        hence, $nge m$.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Nov 17 at 21:34









        A.Γ.

        21.2k22455




        21.2k22455






























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