If $x_n to 0$ and $sigma : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ is a bijection, then show that $x_{sigma (n)} to 0$











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Here's the question:




Let $(x_n)$ be a sequence. Assume that $x_n to 0$. Let $sigma :
mathbb{N} to mathbb{N} $ be a bijection. Define a new sequence $y_n:= x_{sigma(n)}$. Show that $y_n to 0$.




Here's my attempted proof:



Let $epsilon >0$ be arbitrary. Then there exists $Ninmathbb{N}$ such that for $nge N$, we have $left| x_n right|<epsilon$. Now, define the set $A:={nin mathbb{N} : sigma(n) < N }$. Clearly, $A$ is finite set (since $sigma$ is a bijection and there are precisely $N-1$ elements in the set). Let $M=max A +1$. It is evident by the definition of $(y_n)$ that for $nge sigma(M)$, we have $|y_n|< epsilon$.



Is this proof correct? What are some alternative proofs?










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    Your proof is correct and rather straightforward.
    – Math1000
    May 25 at 15:56










  • You could "factor" the proof into a proof that $sigma(n) to infty$ as $nto infty$, and then a proof that if $sigma : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ is any function satisfying this condition, then $x_{sigma(n)} to 0$ as $n to infty$. (Each part of the proof would take certain elements of this proof almost verbatim...)
    – Daniel Schepler
    May 25 at 19:11















up vote
9
down vote

favorite
1












Here's the question:




Let $(x_n)$ be a sequence. Assume that $x_n to 0$. Let $sigma :
mathbb{N} to mathbb{N} $ be a bijection. Define a new sequence $y_n:= x_{sigma(n)}$. Show that $y_n to 0$.




Here's my attempted proof:



Let $epsilon >0$ be arbitrary. Then there exists $Ninmathbb{N}$ such that for $nge N$, we have $left| x_n right|<epsilon$. Now, define the set $A:={nin mathbb{N} : sigma(n) < N }$. Clearly, $A$ is finite set (since $sigma$ is a bijection and there are precisely $N-1$ elements in the set). Let $M=max A +1$. It is evident by the definition of $(y_n)$ that for $nge sigma(M)$, we have $|y_n|< epsilon$.



Is this proof correct? What are some alternative proofs?










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 1




    Your proof is correct and rather straightforward.
    – Math1000
    May 25 at 15:56










  • You could "factor" the proof into a proof that $sigma(n) to infty$ as $nto infty$, and then a proof that if $sigma : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ is any function satisfying this condition, then $x_{sigma(n)} to 0$ as $n to infty$. (Each part of the proof would take certain elements of this proof almost verbatim...)
    – Daniel Schepler
    May 25 at 19:11













up vote
9
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
9
down vote

favorite
1






1





Here's the question:




Let $(x_n)$ be a sequence. Assume that $x_n to 0$. Let $sigma :
mathbb{N} to mathbb{N} $ be a bijection. Define a new sequence $y_n:= x_{sigma(n)}$. Show that $y_n to 0$.




Here's my attempted proof:



Let $epsilon >0$ be arbitrary. Then there exists $Ninmathbb{N}$ such that for $nge N$, we have $left| x_n right|<epsilon$. Now, define the set $A:={nin mathbb{N} : sigma(n) < N }$. Clearly, $A$ is finite set (since $sigma$ is a bijection and there are precisely $N-1$ elements in the set). Let $M=max A +1$. It is evident by the definition of $(y_n)$ that for $nge sigma(M)$, we have $|y_n|< epsilon$.



Is this proof correct? What are some alternative proofs?










share|cite|improve this question















Here's the question:




Let $(x_n)$ be a sequence. Assume that $x_n to 0$. Let $sigma :
mathbb{N} to mathbb{N} $ be a bijection. Define a new sequence $y_n:= x_{sigma(n)}$. Show that $y_n to 0$.




Here's my attempted proof:



Let $epsilon >0$ be arbitrary. Then there exists $Ninmathbb{N}$ such that for $nge N$, we have $left| x_n right|<epsilon$. Now, define the set $A:={nin mathbb{N} : sigma(n) < N }$. Clearly, $A$ is finite set (since $sigma$ is a bijection and there are precisely $N-1$ elements in the set). Let $M=max A +1$. It is evident by the definition of $(y_n)$ that for $nge sigma(M)$, we have $|y_n|< epsilon$.



Is this proof correct? What are some alternative proofs?







real-analysis sequences-and-series proof-verification alternative-proof






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edited Nov 17 at 5:51









Brahadeesh

5,78441957




5,78441957










asked May 25 at 15:49









Ashish K

775513




775513








  • 1




    Your proof is correct and rather straightforward.
    – Math1000
    May 25 at 15:56










  • You could "factor" the proof into a proof that $sigma(n) to infty$ as $nto infty$, and then a proof that if $sigma : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ is any function satisfying this condition, then $x_{sigma(n)} to 0$ as $n to infty$. (Each part of the proof would take certain elements of this proof almost verbatim...)
    – Daniel Schepler
    May 25 at 19:11














  • 1




    Your proof is correct and rather straightforward.
    – Math1000
    May 25 at 15:56










  • You could "factor" the proof into a proof that $sigma(n) to infty$ as $nto infty$, and then a proof that if $sigma : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ is any function satisfying this condition, then $x_{sigma(n)} to 0$ as $n to infty$. (Each part of the proof would take certain elements of this proof almost verbatim...)
    – Daniel Schepler
    May 25 at 19:11








1




1




Your proof is correct and rather straightforward.
– Math1000
May 25 at 15:56




Your proof is correct and rather straightforward.
– Math1000
May 25 at 15:56












You could "factor" the proof into a proof that $sigma(n) to infty$ as $nto infty$, and then a proof that if $sigma : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ is any function satisfying this condition, then $x_{sigma(n)} to 0$ as $n to infty$. (Each part of the proof would take certain elements of this proof almost verbatim...)
– Daniel Schepler
May 25 at 19:11




You could "factor" the proof into a proof that $sigma(n) to infty$ as $nto infty$, and then a proof that if $sigma : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ is any function satisfying this condition, then $x_{sigma(n)} to 0$ as $n to infty$. (Each part of the proof would take certain elements of this proof almost verbatim...)
– Daniel Schepler
May 25 at 19:11










2 Answers
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1
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Something slightly strange has happened. I think where you say $n geq sigma(M)$ you just want $n geq M$. Let's see it your way first:



Your argument



You say $M = max A + 1$.



Then you take $n geq sigma(M)$.



Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and you want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. you want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. But why is this true?



Proposed correction



Say $M = max A + 1$.



Then take $n geq M$.



Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and we want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. we want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. Clearly $n notin A$ becasue $n geq M = max A + 1$.






share|cite|improve this answer




























    up vote
    0
    down vote













    Nitpicking. If $N=1$ then $A=emptyset$ and $max A$ does not exist.



    You can fix this by saying "Then there exists $Nin Bbb N$ such that $N>1$ and such that $forall ngeq N,(|x_n|<epsilon).$"



    Or you can fix this by saying "Let $Min Bbb N$ such that $forall nin A,(M>n).$" (which is logical whether or not $A$ is empty, because $A$ is finite).



    And in the last line you want $n>M, $ because $n>Mimplies sigma(n)geq Nimplies |x_{sigma(n)}|<epsilon$, as explained in the Answer from T_M.



    Other than that, it's fine.



    BTW. If we weaken the condition on $sigma$ to having finite fibers, that is, if ${m:f(m)=n}$ is finite for each $n$, and without $sigma$ necessarily being surjective, then we still have $x_{sigma(n)}to 0 $ because $A$ is still finite. (Although $A$ may have more than $N-1$ members.)






    share|cite|improve this answer























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      2 Answers
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      2 Answers
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      up vote
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      down vote













      Something slightly strange has happened. I think where you say $n geq sigma(M)$ you just want $n geq M$. Let's see it your way first:



      Your argument



      You say $M = max A + 1$.



      Then you take $n geq sigma(M)$.



      Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and you want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. you want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



      This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. But why is this true?



      Proposed correction



      Say $M = max A + 1$.



      Then take $n geq M$.



      Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and we want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. we want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



      This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. Clearly $n notin A$ becasue $n geq M = max A + 1$.






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        1
        down vote













        Something slightly strange has happened. I think where you say $n geq sigma(M)$ you just want $n geq M$. Let's see it your way first:



        Your argument



        You say $M = max A + 1$.



        Then you take $n geq sigma(M)$.



        Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and you want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. you want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



        This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. But why is this true?



        Proposed correction



        Say $M = max A + 1$.



        Then take $n geq M$.



        Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and we want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. we want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



        This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. Clearly $n notin A$ becasue $n geq M = max A + 1$.






        share|cite|improve this answer























          up vote
          1
          down vote










          up vote
          1
          down vote









          Something slightly strange has happened. I think where you say $n geq sigma(M)$ you just want $n geq M$. Let's see it your way first:



          Your argument



          You say $M = max A + 1$.



          Then you take $n geq sigma(M)$.



          Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and you want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. you want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



          This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. But why is this true?



          Proposed correction



          Say $M = max A + 1$.



          Then take $n geq M$.



          Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and we want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. we want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



          This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. Clearly $n notin A$ becasue $n geq M = max A + 1$.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          Something slightly strange has happened. I think where you say $n geq sigma(M)$ you just want $n geq M$. Let's see it your way first:



          Your argument



          You say $M = max A + 1$.



          Then you take $n geq sigma(M)$.



          Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and you want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. you want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



          This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. But why is this true?



          Proposed correction



          Say $M = max A + 1$.



          Then take $n geq M$.



          Now $y_n = x_{sigma(n)}$ and we want $|y_n| < epsilon$, i.e. we want $|x_{sigma(n)}| < epsilon$.



          This would be true if $sigma(n) geq N$, which is equivalent to saying $n notin A$. Clearly $n notin A$ becasue $n geq M = max A + 1$.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered May 25 at 18:46









          T_M

          97927




          97927






















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              Nitpicking. If $N=1$ then $A=emptyset$ and $max A$ does not exist.



              You can fix this by saying "Then there exists $Nin Bbb N$ such that $N>1$ and such that $forall ngeq N,(|x_n|<epsilon).$"



              Or you can fix this by saying "Let $Min Bbb N$ such that $forall nin A,(M>n).$" (which is logical whether or not $A$ is empty, because $A$ is finite).



              And in the last line you want $n>M, $ because $n>Mimplies sigma(n)geq Nimplies |x_{sigma(n)}|<epsilon$, as explained in the Answer from T_M.



              Other than that, it's fine.



              BTW. If we weaken the condition on $sigma$ to having finite fibers, that is, if ${m:f(m)=n}$ is finite for each $n$, and without $sigma$ necessarily being surjective, then we still have $x_{sigma(n)}to 0 $ because $A$ is still finite. (Although $A$ may have more than $N-1$ members.)






              share|cite|improve this answer



























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                Nitpicking. If $N=1$ then $A=emptyset$ and $max A$ does not exist.



                You can fix this by saying "Then there exists $Nin Bbb N$ such that $N>1$ and such that $forall ngeq N,(|x_n|<epsilon).$"



                Or you can fix this by saying "Let $Min Bbb N$ such that $forall nin A,(M>n).$" (which is logical whether or not $A$ is empty, because $A$ is finite).



                And in the last line you want $n>M, $ because $n>Mimplies sigma(n)geq Nimplies |x_{sigma(n)}|<epsilon$, as explained in the Answer from T_M.



                Other than that, it's fine.



                BTW. If we weaken the condition on $sigma$ to having finite fibers, that is, if ${m:f(m)=n}$ is finite for each $n$, and without $sigma$ necessarily being surjective, then we still have $x_{sigma(n)}to 0 $ because $A$ is still finite. (Although $A$ may have more than $N-1$ members.)






                share|cite|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  Nitpicking. If $N=1$ then $A=emptyset$ and $max A$ does not exist.



                  You can fix this by saying "Then there exists $Nin Bbb N$ such that $N>1$ and such that $forall ngeq N,(|x_n|<epsilon).$"



                  Or you can fix this by saying "Let $Min Bbb N$ such that $forall nin A,(M>n).$" (which is logical whether or not $A$ is empty, because $A$ is finite).



                  And in the last line you want $n>M, $ because $n>Mimplies sigma(n)geq Nimplies |x_{sigma(n)}|<epsilon$, as explained in the Answer from T_M.



                  Other than that, it's fine.



                  BTW. If we weaken the condition on $sigma$ to having finite fibers, that is, if ${m:f(m)=n}$ is finite for each $n$, and without $sigma$ necessarily being surjective, then we still have $x_{sigma(n)}to 0 $ because $A$ is still finite. (Although $A$ may have more than $N-1$ members.)






                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  Nitpicking. If $N=1$ then $A=emptyset$ and $max A$ does not exist.



                  You can fix this by saying "Then there exists $Nin Bbb N$ such that $N>1$ and such that $forall ngeq N,(|x_n|<epsilon).$"



                  Or you can fix this by saying "Let $Min Bbb N$ such that $forall nin A,(M>n).$" (which is logical whether or not $A$ is empty, because $A$ is finite).



                  And in the last line you want $n>M, $ because $n>Mimplies sigma(n)geq Nimplies |x_{sigma(n)}|<epsilon$, as explained in the Answer from T_M.



                  Other than that, it's fine.



                  BTW. If we weaken the condition on $sigma$ to having finite fibers, that is, if ${m:f(m)=n}$ is finite for each $n$, and without $sigma$ necessarily being surjective, then we still have $x_{sigma(n)}to 0 $ because $A$ is still finite. (Although $A$ may have more than $N-1$ members.)







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Nov 17 at 7:51

























                  answered Nov 17 at 7:41









                  DanielWainfleet

                  33.5k31647




                  33.5k31647






























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